Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 12-01-2005, 04:13 PM

I would like some information on the Greek influence on early Christianity.

I know that many of the early Biblical writings were in Greek, that the name Christ, comes from Christos, which is Greek, and that Christian "philosophy" has a lot in common with the Greek stoics, such as Plato and Aristotle.

I'm currently writing an article for my website and would like more info the the Greek/Christian connections.

Anyone with info I'm eager to hear about it.

Thanks

Orthodox_Freethinker · 12-01-2005, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Christian "philosophy" has a lot in common with the Greek stoics, such as Plato and Aristotle.

This is very true, which is why Christianity is not only the fulfillment of Judaism but Greek philosophy.

Peace.

guy_683930 · 12-01-2005, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker

This is very true, which is why Christianity is not only the fulfillment of Judaism but Greek philosophy.

Peace.

Only if you misuse Greek philosophy. Then you can say that. The deity Yahweh would make Xenophanes or Plato cringe because of his atrocities and clearly imperfect nature. Plato would have considered him at best the demiurge. He's just as anthropomorphic as Zeus, just Yahwism stopped using pictures of him, so THAT makes him the supreme deity, right?

Orthodox_Freethinker · 12-01-2005, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy_683930

Only if you misuse Greek philosophy. Then you can say that. The deity Yahweh would make Xenophanes or Plato cringe because of his atrocities and clearly imperfect nature. Plato would have considered him at best the demiurge. He's just as anthropomorphic as Zeus, just Yahwism stopped using pictures of him, so THAT makes him the supreme deity, right?

Please refer the first chapter of John's Gospel. Jesus is the Greek Logos incarnate. Whatever good elements there were to Greek philosophy, they are fulfilled in Christ.

guy_683930 · 12-01-2005, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker

Please refer the first chapter of John's Gospel. Jesus is the Greek Logos incarnate. Whatever good elements there were to Greek philosophy, they are fulfilled in Christ.

Yeah, but you forget that it says about the Logos that "In him was life, and the life was the light of men. " (John 1:4) It could be saying that the Logos is the reason that exists within each person. And what you say about the "Logos incarnate", is based on John 1:14 "the word became flesh".

But you forget that in John 6:53-55 says that you must eat of his flesh and drink of his blood. Was that literally true? If it isn't, how do you know John 1:14 is supposed to be taken as literally true? My guess is that is one of those reasons why the church doctrine went to transubstantiation in order to keep people from considering the mystical and metaphorical properties of John. OF, do you believe in transubstantiation?

Amaleq13 · 12-01-2005, 04:59 PM

Please give the thread a chance to develop before derailing it with tangential arguments.

Thanks in advance,

Amaleq13, BC&H moderator

countjulian · 12-01-2005, 05:34 PM

Quote:

This is very true, which is why Christianity is not only the fulfillment of Judaism but Greek philosophy.

Peace.

Not only Greek philosophy, but also Hellenistic mythology, deeply influenced the formation of the Christ myth (note I do believe in an HJ, although I also believe that we can no little or nothing about such a figure). I've posted this list before, but for your viewing pleasure

Quote:

The Greek god Perseus, born of the virgin Danae and Zeus in a shower of gold:

Acrisius of Argos … denied Perseus could be Jove’s son, whom Danae conceived in that gold shower. –Metamorphoses 4.576

The Greek god Heracles (known to you under his Roman name, Hercules), who died in agony, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven:

Heracles, whom she had by Zeus…the poison of the hydra began to corrode his skin…and [he] tore off the tunic, which clung to his body, so that his flesh was torn away with it. In such a sad plight he was carried on shipboard to Trachis… [Heracles] proceeded to Mount Oeta, in the Trachinian territory, and there constructed a pyre, mounted it, and gave orders to kindle it. When no one would do so, Poeas, passing by to look for his flocks, set a light to it. On him Hercules bestowed his bow. While the pyre was burning, it is said that a cloud passed under Hercules and with a peal of thunder wafted him up to heaven. Thereafter he obtained immortality-- Apollodorus, 'The Library,' 11; IV, 8-VII, 7

The Greek god Asclepius, who made the blind see, raised men from the dead, died, and was resurrected:

"Asclepius was the son of Apollo [a god] and Coronis [a mortal woman]...he healed many sick whose lives had been despaired of, and... he brought back to life many who had died."—Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History, 4.7.1.1- 2

When Hippolytus was killed,...Asclepius raised him from the dead."—Pausanias, Corinth, Description of Greece, 1.27.5

Hermon of Thasus. His blindness was cured by Asclepius.— Inscriptiones Graecae, 4.1.121 - 122, Stele 2.22

"The youth [Asklepios] blasted by ancestral bolts [of Zeus] soars from earth…Phoebus [Apollon], you whined. He is a god; smile at your father, who, for your sake, undoes his prohibitions [and grants Asklepios life]-- Ovid, Fasti 6.735

…Hercules [Herakles], of Castor and Pollux [the Dioskouroi], of Aesculapius [Asklepios] ... And these benefactors were duly deemed divine, as being both supremely good and immortal, because their souls survived and enjoyed eternal life.—Cicero, De Natura Deorum 2.24

The salvation god Mithra, who spilled eternal blood to save humanity, and left his followers with a sacred Eucharist:

You [Mithra] have saved us by the shedding of eternal blood.—Inscription, Santa Prisca Mithraeum in Rome

This rite [communion] the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For they set forth bread and a cup of water with certain incantations in their ceremonies of initiation—Justin Martyr, First Apology 68

The Egyptian god Osiris, who died, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven, where he will judge the living and the dead, forever and ever:

[the first examination]
They [the Gods of the Underworld] say, "Come forward.
They say, "Who are you,"
They say, "What is your name?"
"I am the he who is equipped under the flowers, the-dweller-in-the-moringa Osiris is my name."—Egyptian book of the Dead

the rites celebrated by night agree with the accounts of the dismemberment of Osiris and his resurrection and regenesis—Plutarch, Isis and Osiris 364

Isis, who resurrected Osiris and with him guarantees salvation to all who except Osiris as savior:

The keys of hell and the guarantee of salvation were in the hands of the goddess, and the initiation ceremony itself a kind of voluntary death and salvation through divine grace.—
Apuleius, Metamorphosis, Book 11, 21

And [the followers of Isis & Osiris said], "Be of good cheer, O initiates, for the god is saved, and we shall have salvation— Firmicus Maternus, The Error of Pagan Religions, 22.1

The Greek god Dionysus, who turned water to wine, did miracles, died, and was resurrected:

One woman [bacchant]
struck her thyrsus against a rock and a fountain
of cool water came bubbling up. Another drove
her fennel in the ground, and where it struck the earth,
at the touch of god [Dionysus], a spring of wine poured out….— Euripides, The Bacchae, 707- 712

the fierce resentment of implacable Hera, the Titanes cunningly smeared their round faces with disguising chalk, and while he contemplated his changeling countenance reflected in a mirror they destroyed him with an infernal knife. There where his limbs had been cut piecemeal by the Titan steel, the end of his life was the beginning of a new life-- Nonnus, Dionysiaca 6.155

The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and ...having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven--Justin Martyr, First Apology, 54

I'm having a discussion on this same list with some other fellows down below, in the thread labelled "Pagan Christs."

Notice also that's one man's "fulfillment" is another man's "plagiarism." It's kind of funny for Christians to spout of about their religion fulifilling Greek philosophy, considering that Paul called the wisdom of the philosphers "the wisdom of fools" and attacked Greek philosophy (meaning also science), Tertullian openly attacked philosophy, saying "What has Athen to do with Jerusalem" (ironic considering that Tertullian himslef was heavily influenced by Greek Stoicism) and laughing at the prospect of philosphers being thrown into Hell, the Christians openly made war on philosophy when they took over, and the ultra-pious Christian Emperor Justinian closed down the centuries-old philisophical acadamey at Athens.
It should also be noted that the chruch itself admits to having burrowed much from Hellenism in its ritual. Incense, ringing bells, the date of Christmas, naming churches after Saints, and much more are as pagan as Plato, and the church openly admits to that.

Hoped that helped.

Malachi151 · 12-01-2005, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker

Please refer the first chapter of John's Gospel. Jesus is the Greek Logos incarnate. Whatever good elements there were to Greek philosophy, they are fulfilled in Christ.

Can you expand on this a little more? Thank you.

Orthodox_Freethinker · 12-01-2005, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy_683930

But you forget that in John 6:53-55 says that you must eat of his flesh and drink of his blood. Was that literally true?

Yes, it very much is. The Greek word which translates as to eat, "trogo", literally means "to chew". However, "trogo" was never used for non-literal eating. No one has ever given an example from ancient history in which "trogo" was used in a non-literal way. In John 6, Jesus also states that the 'bread of life' is His flesh, which is how we eat of His flesh in the Eucharist.

Orthodox_Freethinker · 12-01-2005, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Can you expand on this a little more? Thank you.

Logos
Philosophy.
In pre-Socratic philosophy, the principle governing the cosmos, the source of this principle, or human reasoning about the cosmos.
Among the Sophists, the topics of rational argument or the arguments themselves.
In Stoicism, the active, material, rational principle of the cosmos; nous. Identified with God, it is the source of all activity and generation and is the power of reason residing in the human soul.
Judaism.
In biblical Judaism, the word of God, which itself has creative power and is God's medium of communication with the human race.
In Hellenistic Judaism, a hypostasis associated with divine wisdom.
Christianity. In Saint John's Gospel, especially in the prologue (1:1-14), the creative word of God, which is itself God and incarnate in Jesus. Also called Word.
www.dictionary.com

12-01-2005, 04:13 PM	#1
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Greek influence on early Christianity I would like some information on the Greek influence on early Christianity. I know that many of the early Biblical writings were in Greek, that the name Christ, comes from Christos, which is Greek, and that Christian "philosophy" has a lot in common with the Greek stoics, such as Plato and Aristotle. I'm currently writing an article for my website and would like more info the the Greek/Christian connections. Anyone with info I'm eager to hear about it. Thanks

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12-01-2005, 04:59 PM	#6
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	Please give the thread a chance to develop before derailing it with tangential arguments. Thanks in advance, Amaleq13, BC&H moderator

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