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Mageth · 09-03-2003, 11:50 AM

What are the main literary sources for ancient paganism, I wonder?

The Golden Bough - A Study in Magic and Religion (1922) By Sir James George Fraser (1854 - 1941) is one good source.

It (the short version - it was originally 12 volumes, IIRC) can be found online here.

Another source is Joseph Campbell, particularly The Masks of God series, but also The Hero with a Thousand Faces.

Toto · 09-03-2003, 12:28 PM

I don't have my copy of Freke and Gandy here - do they say that Dionysios was crucified?

The Golden Bough linked above says:

Quote:

In Boeotia one of his titles was 'Dionysus in the tree.' His image was often merely an upright post, without arms, but draped in a mantle, with a bearded mask to represent the head, and with leafy boughs projecting from the head or body to show the nature of the deity.

This doesn't mean that he was crucified, but since Jesus' crucifixion is referred to in Acts as being "hung on a tree" there appears to be a possible link between the two images, which might well have been exploited by early Christians trying to convert the followers of the mysteries.

The other possible link:

Quote:

Like other gods of vegetation Dionysus was believed to have died a violent death, but to have been brought to life again; and his sufferings, death, and resurrection were enacted in his sacred rites.

And Bede's amulet does not look like a crucifixion to me - but the head does look like a cross.

Rick Sumner · 09-03-2003, 02:08 PM

Quote:

This doesn't mean that he was crucified, but since Jesus' crucifixion is referred to in Acts as being "hung on a tree" there appears to be a possible link between the two images, which might well have been exploited by early Christians trying to convert the followers of the mysteries.

In Jewish literature, being "hanged alive from a tree" is a common euphemism for crucifixion, eg. 4Q169 1.6. There's a better citation in the DSS somewhere--condemning the Kittim for hanging men alive from trees--but I can't for the life of me remember where.

Regards,
Rick

Toto · 09-03-2003, 02:14 PM

Jewish execution practice was to stone a miscreant and then hang the body from a tree - not exactly the same as the Roman crucifixion. In Acts the Jews are said to have slew Jesus and hung him from a tree.

In any case, Dionysios was "hung from a tree" (in effigy) in the mystery celebrations, which might have been interpreted as crucifixion by a spectator. But the legends that we have do not describe him as having died by crucifixion - it appears that he was torn apart.

Rick Sumner · 09-03-2003, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Jewish execution practice was to stone a miscreant and then hang the body from a tree - not exactly the same as the Roman crucifixion. In Acts the Jews are said to have slew Jesus and hung him from a tree.

I know. That's why I said the better example was the verse in which they condemn the Kittim for hanging men alive from trees. I'll see if I can track it down--I really wish there was a concordance to these things that didn't cost a small fortune.

Quote:

In any case, Dionysios was "hung from a tree" (in effigy) in the mystery celebrations, which might have been interpreted as crucifixion by a spectator. But the legends that we have do not describe him as having died by crucifixion - it appears that he was torn apart.

I'd be interested in seeing more reliable information on the matter. A quick Google of "Dionysus of the tree" turned up precisely zero results that weren't quoting Frazer. Ditto for "Dionysus in the tree." Replacing "Dionysus" with "Bacchus" turns up zero results period. Since he doesn't provide any references whatsoever, this is suspicious to say the least.

I would also be interested in knowing why any 'spectator' would have seen these secret rites other than those in the sect.

I would also be interested in knowing why it would be in any way acquianted with crucifixion. Dionysus was, after all, the god of fruit trees. Are we to presume that spectators to this secret rite didn't know that?

The 'evidence' that followers of Dionysus have anything to do with crucifixion is both lonely and late. And thus, as Bede noted, if we are going to view any causality on the matter, it runs *from* Christianity, not to it.

Incidentally, contra seemingly everyone else, I'd reccommend never looking at The Golden Bough again. The utter absence of reference to sources classical or contemporary, can only be described as appalling.

Regards,
Rick

Mageth · 09-03-2003, 03:41 PM

Incidentally, contra seemingly everyone else, I'd reccommend never looking at The Golden Bough again. The utter absence of reference to sources classical or contemporary, can only be described as appalling.

Umm, read the preface (emphasis mine):

Quote:

THE aim of this book is to explain the remarkable rule which regulated the succession to the priesthood of Diana at Aricia. When I first set myself to solve the problem more than thirty years ago, I thought that the solution could be propounded very briefly, but I soon found that to render it probable or even intelligible it was necessary to discuss certain more general questions, some of which had hardly been broached before. In successive editions the discussion of these and kindred topics has occupied more and more space, the enquiry has branched out in more and more directions, until the two volumes of the original work have expanded into twelve. Meantime a wish has often been expressed that the book should be issued in a more compendious form. This abridgment is an attempt to meet the wish and thereby to bring the work within the range of a wider circle of readers. .... In order to keep as much of the text as possible I have sacrificed all the notes, and with them all exact references to my authorities. Readers who desire to ascertain the source of any particular statement must therefore consult the larger work, which is fully documented and provided with a complete bibliography.

So the notes and bibliography are available if you can find the unabridged 12 volume edition. I find the abridged edition a useful source for investigating magical and religious beliefs.

Doctor X · 09-03-2003, 03:51 PM

For what it is worth. . . .

I had a conversation with a professor on the reliability of Fraser. It so happens that he did his dissertation on Fraser. He had to check through all of the sources and found them valid. Furthermore, according to this professor he "classed" his sources based on the reliability and evidence. Sometimes he did not use a source that would have supported an argument because it was not reliable enough.

It is a shame that many of the "popular" current editions of Fraser censor his discussion on the crucifixion.

--J.D.

Mageth · 09-03-2003, 04:01 PM

It is a shame that many of the "popular" current editions of Fraser censor his discussion on the crucifixion.

Interesting. Could you give me some pointers on how to determine if the version I'm currently reading does? (I don't have info on the version at hand, but I can post it later).

Rick Sumner · 09-03-2003, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
I had a conversation with a professor on the reliability of Fraser. It so happens that he did his dissertation on Fraser. He had to check through all of the sources and found them valid. Furthermore, according to this professor he "classed" his sources based on the reliability and evidence. Sometimes he did not use a source that would have supported an argument because it was not reliable enough.

I would be interested in knowing the source of "Dionysus in the tree." If Doctor X could ask his/her(?) professor, I would certainly appreciate it. If anyone else is aware of a source for it, I would appreciate that equally.

Regardless of your professor's findings, I have a hard time accepting anything by fiat--I'd need to check for myself. It's interesting that it appears nowhere else o/l.

This still doesn't answer my remaining questions--which presumed the accuracy of Frazer--regarding the seemingly grasping connection between Dionysus and crucifixion.

Regards,
Rick

Toto · 09-03-2003, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pervy Hobbit Fancier
Well, I've had a look at a copy of Freke and Gandy's book ('The Jesus Mysteries') to see where they get their info from.

On the death of Dionysus they state (Page 62: ...

Hi Pervy -

In my copy, this quote is at page 51, and the first sentence ends with (see plates 4 and 5).

Plate 4 is a photo of a "Marble sacrophagus from the second to third centuries CE." The caption reads:

4. A representative of Dionysus is lifted up on a tree during the Spirng festival of the Mysteries. Jesus was likewise said to have been "lifted up on a tree" at Easter time. Often a cross bar was also used so that, like Jesus, the Pagan godman was raised up on a cross.

The marble carving shows athletic youths struggling to lift up the Dionysus figure, with a tree in the background.

This is apparently in The Art Museum of Princeton University.

Plate 5 is a Greek vase c. fifth century BCE. The caption reads

5. Dionysus was represented as bearded, wearing purple robes and a crown, often made of ivy. Jesus is, likewise, portrayed as a bearded man who was dressed in pruple robes and a crown of thorns before his crucifixion. On an altar before Dionysus are loaves of bread and jars of wine which will be used to celebrate the holy communion of the Mysteries, a sacred scarement that Christians inherited and still perform today.

The vase shows the Dionysus figure on a pole, very similar in theme to the one in Plate 4, surrounded by women celebrants holding loaves of bread or ladling wine out of jars.

So there you have it. And it seems that the secret Mystery rites were not all that secret, if they can show up in artwork.

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09-03-2003, 11:50 AM	#81
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	What are the main literary sources for ancient paganism, I wonder? The Golden Bough - A Study in Magic and Religion (1922) By Sir James George Fraser (1854 - 1941) is one good source. It (the short version - it was originally 12 volumes, IIRC) can be found online here. Another source is Joseph Campbell, particularly The Masks of God series, but also The Hero with a Thousand Faces.

09-03-2003, 02:14 PM	#84
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Jewish execution practice was to stone a miscreant and then hang the body from a tree - not exactly the same as the Roman crucifixion. In Acts the Jews are said to have slew Jesus and hung him from a tree. In any case, Dionysios was "hung from a tree" (in effigy) in the mystery celebrations, which might have been interpreted as crucifixion by a spectator. But the legends that we have do not describe him as having died by crucifixion - it appears that he was torn apart.

09-03-2003, 03:51 PM	#87
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	For what it is worth. . . . I had a conversation with a professor on the reliability of Fraser. It so happens that he did his dissertation on Fraser. He had to check through all of the sources and found them valid. Furthermore, according to this professor he "classed" his sources based on the reliability and evidence. Sometimes he did not use a source that would have supported an argument because it was not reliable enough. It is a shame that many of the "popular" current editions of Fraser censor his discussion on the crucifixion. --J.D.

09-03-2003, 04:01 PM	#88
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	It is a shame that many of the "popular" current editions of Fraser censor his discussion on the crucifixion. Interesting. Could you give me some pointers on how to determine if the version I'm currently reading does? (I don't have info on the version at hand, but I can post it later).

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