Larsguy47

What?!!! The concept of the hour, the 24-hour day comes from Egypt. The concept of the "evening" or the technical decline of the sun would begin at noon. This very concept the JEWS as well maintained, since they begin their first "evening" at noon, and have a second at the actual sunset. Likewise, though, if the sun begins to decline at noon, it would be understood to begin its opposite journey toward sunrise at midnight. Thus midnight is considered the beginning of a new SOLAR DATE. The Jews likewise observed this by beginning their own DATE of the month in line with midnight-to-midnight, though they had another concept of the ceremonial day that began at "nightfall" for the regular days of the week except for sabbath days, which began slightly earlier at sunset.

So it makes sense. And if we're doing it today in modern times because of it's practicality, certainly we shouldn't begrudge the Egyptians of doing so and also coming up with that concept in the first place. Doing so makes each calendar date completely equal and not fluctuate with the seasons.

Thus, if we make this general observation in relation to the hours of the sun, beginning a 12-hour period at midnight, then the 6th hour would fall between 5am and 6am. If 1375BCE is the correct timing for this eclipse, the only that occurs during the conventional dating for the Amarna Period, then the HOUR of the eclipse in 1375BCE should match within the time of 5-6AM. It does.


So again, this reference simplified to it's practical needs, that is just th identification of this event, the time and place: hour, day, month and which zodiac sign the sun rose in (since this is only observable just before dawn) is all that is here, and hour sixth is when the 1375BCE eclipse occurred, counted from Midnight, of course.

You can certainly see the practicality for this though, especially for an astronomer. Midnight is much more consistent on a daily basis than the ever revolving sunrise and sunsets over the seasons, and more significant to the opposite directions in which the sun travels when that concept is considered a circle.

Besides, somewhere in Herodotus or in some other Greek historian's reference when comparing the various customs of the hours of the day, it specifically mentions the Egyptians began their day, by contrast, at midnight. I'll try and find that reference, but it is rather casually known and referenced.

I'll try and find that specific reference.

Larsguy47

Jack the Bodiless

On the contrary: the Bible contains quite a lot of bogus "history" that has been disproven (here is a recent post in which I outlined 14 historical errors in the Bible), along with some genuine history too. So it's not an issue of simply "believing the Bible's history" or "disbelieving the Bible's history": each claim has to be considered on its own merits.
As the Bible also contains numerous failed prophecies, an actual example of a "fulfilled prophecy" would not be an endorsement of the Bible as a whole: it would merely be an indication of possible "prophetic ability" in one author whose writings happened to end up in the Bible.

But, given the many ludicrous leaps you're having to make (and all the numerology, context-ripping, hopping from one book to another, and similar antics), and your need to blatantly ignore all the details that can't be made to fit: you are obviously nowhere near demonstrating a successful prophecy anyhow.

Which does raise the question: if fulfilled prophecy IS to be used as a criterion to judge the Bible, why are its failures so obvious, and where are the equally obvious successes? Why is this sort of apologetic gymnastics necessary?

BTW, the Biblical "Exodus" did not occur in the time of Akhenaten (or indeed anywhen else).

Jack the Bodiless

As spin pointed out earlier, you have miscalculated by a factor of 7. Each "week" was 7 years, not 49. And the verses you cite have nothing to do with Jesus anyhow.

Furthermore, the re-emergence of Israel in the 20th century was never predicted by any Biblical prophet. So attempting to tie it into this sort of numbers-game is pointless.

Larsguy47

Do you have that pecise reference for us to at least compare it? Reference, please?

Yes, and by FR Stephenson during the "conventional" dating for the Amarna Period in 1375 BCE. But, likely de Jong and van Soldt were presuming B++ must have meant "was ashamed" because they hadn't thought that "sixth" worked with the day of the month, not thinking it could refer to the hour of the day, especially since the day of the new moon is referenced specifically. If though, this is understood to be the sixth hour, then out of four possible matches, only one event occurs between 5-6 a.m. and that's the 1375BCE event. So only if you go around the corner and down the block to bet "btt" as "was ashamed" and applied indirectly to the entire "day of the new moon" instead of specifically the sun or moon, as it occurs in that context elsewhere do you even get to those other dates. Therefore, once "btt" becomes the clear choice or even a clear option for "sixth" in relation to the hour, then there is only one date that can be applied to this event. That's why it is so preemptive. Once you give the hour of an eclipse, lunar or solar, it practically eliminates any other eclipses for any other years a thousand years in each direction.


In this case, the Egyptians (who were actually ruling over Ugarit at the time?) have a direct association of "gates" and the travel of the sun. This at least suggests this is an Egyptian concept because of that clear and direct association as well as because, as noted, Ugarit was actually an Egyptian subsidiary at the time, likely with an in-house Egyptian officer.

Yeah, whatever, but it works! Thanks for your approval.



Well, seems you didn't know that from the time the Egytians took over Canaan they sent all the nobles to be educated in Egypt. So definitely by this time Egypt's academic concepts were of greatest influence over Ugarit.

This is just the first Google reference that came up when I searched "Canaan Egypt university." So for most who know Egyptian history it is commonly known that part of the control and influence over Canaan involved education in Egyptian universities.

That's precisely what I'm saying. It's "shorthand" understood by the person writing it who doesn't have to overexplain the obvious, no more than if I wrote "3/26/06" would be understood as a date in our culture. This personal reference here thus notes the very basics here. He would understand that Reshep was a reference to the zodiac house. "Enter sun through HER GATE" was simply aqualification that since the house the sun is in is observed just before sunrise, that the sun rose in Taurus was really simply a common reference to which zodiac house the sun was in. RESHEP is simply a reference to the zodiac house. Since the zodiac house is limited to the actual event based upon the date, the suggestion/confirmation that Reshep is a reference to Taurus is made. When we compare Taurus, the "Bull of Heaven" to the title of Reshep in Egypt who is called the "Lord of Heaven", and we see Reshep is "hot" and "burning" and that Taurus is an "angry bull, hot and burning with anger" then the connection is made. Reshep works as an astronomical reference for Taurus just fine.


Really? Great. But in EGYPT, the SUN is directly associated with traveling through GATES. This is an Egyptian vassal city-state. All the magistrates were trained in Egypt and Egypt had it's own representatives in these places. In Egypt the gate through which the sun travels through is of a FEMALE GODDESS, Hathor. Thus "HER gate" is required.

On a cosmological level, though, a GATE is a stationary structure. The sun entering HER GATE would suggest the sun, a moving body, is entering a stationary concept of a gate leading some place. "HER" gate suggests that that stationary place is related to some female. We don't have to guess here what that is as far as Egyptian reference goes, since the "gates" through which the sun travels through are specifically female, belonging to the goddess Hathor. The sun entering through the gate of Hathor is a very simple concept for sunrise in Egypt.

This is based on the context of hundreds of astronomical texts that use this type of "shorthand." When you make common references again and again then it's not necessary to use so many words. One word is often enough. Every eclipse is defined by its TIME and LOCATION, that is the date of the eclipse and it's zodiac position. That was the common reference. So simply listing the zodiac house would have been enough for an astronomer to know what was in reference in relation to an eclipse. That being the case, I'm simply noting that this reference becomes quite simple and direct. "Sixth hour, day of the new Moon of Hiyarru, the sun rose in Taurus." The basic reference for this eclipse. On the reverse it notes a negative liver reading. Just the basics. No involved concept of the sun traveling with its "gatekeeper" which is much more complex then simply the common phrase adopted for the concept of sunrise, the sun entering through the vulva of Hathor every morning, and the only time the zodiac house would be in specific observation in relation to the sun. This concept is very central, very basic, but also very Egyptian.

I don't have to, I have all Ace's. :notworthy:


NOT, if B++ is translated at "sixth." Once that becomes applicable, then this eclipse can only occur between 5am and 6am. The only eclipse that matches that specific our in 1375BCE. This date falls within the current "conventional" date for Akhenaten. People were in Ugarit at the time of Akhenaten's rule because a letter tells us there was a fire there that burned down half the palace. Any other dates fall outside the reign of Akhenaten, adding more arguments against those datings by general reference than simply not matching specifically the "sixth hour."

As I pointed out, clearly a point you didn't realize and perhaps they either, is that all the nobles and magistrates were educated in Egypt as part of Egypt's control over the region. Plus there were Egyptian officials stationed in these cities. The idea of the "sun entering Her gate" is so directly Egyptian. But also is the concept of the 24-hour day. Anyone educated in Egypt would thus have a concept of the hours of the day, particularly an astronomer-priest or magistrate preparing this text. In fact, maybe HOUR of the eclipse as well as the zodiac house were considered significant. If the culture of Egypt, which was the same as the culture of Ugarit by now had a concept of the hour, why would they leave it out in relation to an eclipse event? So "fanciful" is not quite the word for it. We today, for obvious practical reasons, have a 24-hour day that begins at midnight. I suppose we are "fanciful" as well, right?

This matters not. RESHEP was simply adopted as a reference for TAURUS because he fit the bill: an angry, hotheaded got, like the angry "Bull of Heaven." Reshep's title as "Lord of Heaven" is equivalent to "Bull of Heaven" so by his title alone he has association with Taurus. This magistrate simply coveniently is using RSP as a reference to Traurus. It's not about his being a minor or major god, but simply the god associated with Taurus. Again, though, this theory is quite dismissble if the sun didn't rise in Taurus, but it does. RSP is going to be a reference to the zodiac house, not matter what. We are simply, therefore, examining after the fact, why Reshep would be seen as a practical or preferred reference for the constellation of Taurus, the angry bull, whose formal name is identical to the title given to Reshep by the Egyptians, the "Lord/Bull of Heaven."


Ugarit was Egypt at this time, part of the Egyptian empire! Hello?!!!! You are running from the fundamentals here! Ugarit was more Egyptian than Ugaritian at this point. Egypt's astronomy program was certainly more advanced than Ugarit's so it would default to the Egyptian cosmological concepts first, long before that of Sumer or Assyria. Of if you prefer, perhaps this text was actually written by the Egyptian magistrate assigned to Ugarit, who certainly would have expressed this eclipse with Egyptian concepts, and advanced concepts of the HOUR as well. The HOUR-DAY-MONTH is just the very basics! You make it seem like a conspiracy theory.

The sun traveling through the gates of Hathor ("her" gates) is fundamentally Egyptian. Why wouldn't be thus not presume, just on that basis that this was an Egyptian-influenced text since that concept is so fundamentally Egyptian? But once you know that everybody was educated in Egyptian astronomy anyway, then its quite easily explained. To purposely move aggressively away from an Egyptian influenced text when Ugarit was an Egyptian vassal state at the time, simply is not an option. At this time, it would be not only natural but "expected" that the astronomical references would be expressed in Egyptian cosmological concepts.

Larsguy47

Larsguy47

Sorry for the misunderstanding. A week is seven days. But there are at least three concepts of a "week" in this reference:

1) A 7-year week, 7 x 1 year.
2) A 49-year week, the "jubilee week", 7 x 7 years.
3) A 3430-year week, seven days of 490 years each.

So when I reference "jubilee week" I have a reference to the 49-year long "week."

Your belief that there is no Bible prophecies affecting Israel or anything in the 20th century is your own personal take and interpretation of the scriptures, which you are entitled to.

But others do apply these chronologies, and the concept of these 70 jubilees is no exception.

So who is right? You are the others?

In this case, I'm simply showing how the numbers chrunch out. You can make up your own mind if these are just lame coincidences or fulfillment of prophecy. That's what this "exercise" is about. How those who imply the chronology upon themselves and their beliefs have a tougher time to try and make everything match up in a "realistic" manner.

So the basic reference here is simply to confirm that 1947 would fix-date the Exodus to 1386BCE. That being the case, let's look and see how practical that reference is in terms of archaeological dating or other references. That's all. That being said, it fits the general archaeological timing, for instance, for the fall of Jericho between 1350-1325BCE by the Israelites. The 1386BCE dating would date the fall of Jericho to 1346BCE (40 years later), which falls where archaeologists have already dated that event. So it checks out. Rather than the alternative, that archaeologists say Jericho was not inhabited for 400 years after the LBIIA period. So if the prophetic date was too much later, then you'd have an archaeological contradiction, etc.

That's all.

Thanks for sharing.

Larsguy47

post tenebras lux

I'll await that reference, cos I can't find any references to them begining their days at mignight.

All I understand is that they were using 18 decan stars (out of 36) to mark the night (but with the first and last three knocked off for the gloamings) during the Middle Kingdom, but that they later changed to using 12 stars out of 24 during the New Kingdom.

Other references appear to indicate that their daty started with dawn and I've seen nothing that indicates that when the ninth decan gave way to the tenth (or sixth star to seventh in NK times) was anything important, such as, when the new day started.

Gamera

So smart people who can figure all this out beleive the bible, and dumb people don't? It's that the God you're positiing: the God of the overly learned.

Jack the Bodiless

You have no justification for assuming that "jubilee weeks" were being referred to.
Nope, it's based on the observation that the Jewish diaspora after 70 AD wasn't predicted by any OT prophet: therefore they couldn't predict the re-emergence of a nation that wasn't supposed to be destroyed. And even the NT sources that "predict" the fall of Israel never predicted its re-emergence (it didn't matter, the Second Coming was imminent...). Why don't you check what the Book of Revelation has to say about Israel?
You are attempting to link a fictional ancient event (which therefore has no "date") to an unprophesied modern one. It's pointless.

nogods4me

Lars, if it's fulfilled prophecy you are looking for, Moby Dick is the way to go.

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

spin

I'll leave you to speculate.

I suggest you actually read the literature.

It reads:

B++ YM

So, without any understoods, it can be...
...in the month of hiyyaru...

Ummm, try Sawyer and Stephenson, 469-470.

It is grammatically acceptable.

The day of the moon of Hiyyaru was shamed

Why?

The sun went into the gate of Reshep.

Things that are obvious to you are because you are used to them. It has no necessity in a very different time. You are retrojecting.

This is quite exaggerated. The Egyptians weren't interested in teaching anybody anything. The Egyptians tended to treat non-Egyptians with disdain. They dealt with Canaanites with Western Peripheral Akkadian because it was a lingua franca for the area, not in Egyptian. Besides, our tablet was written in Ugaritic, the language used by Ugarit and no-one else.

This is commonly called conjecture.

Well actually, are you sure? When did Ugarit pass into Hittite hands??

It was written in Ugaritic. And the tablet was cultically appropriate to Ugarit, where it was found.

Rubbish.

As we are dealing with a text found in Ugarit, perhaps you might like to supply Ugaritic examples of synonyms for Reshep. You'll find you can't.

This is called eisegesis.

We are dealing with a Ugaritic text...
...not butterfly logic.


spin