Larsguy47

Why Believe the Bible's History? Good question. But the fact is, since little can be absolutely proven or disproven, it's a credibility call. In that vain, though, what the Bible offers as an incentive to believe in its history I think is fulfilled prophecy. That is, the ability of God to see into the future and write down what will happen 2000 years earlier. That's what I'm impressed with when it comes right down to being faced with simply believing the Bible over some other historical book or historical inscription.

This works particularly good for the non-believers too, because it is fascinating stuff and they deal with dismissing the Bible based upon "logic" for the most part.

So here would be a few interesting "coincidences" I'd throw out there.


1. The KTU 1.78 text records a solar eclipse that occurred in Ugarit. The face of the text was charred as it was in a fire, but it's the only text like it found at Ugarit. The writing suggests that it might have simply been a personal reference; it was not a text designed as a record. On one side is the hour, day and month of the eclipse, along with the zodiac sign at sunrise. On the other side is a liver reading. So this was more "astrological" text than astronomic text monitoring celestial phenomena. The fact that it is unique combined with it's charred surface, though, suggests that it was current or even perhaps not having been presented to the king for a reading yet. It might have been out on the table drying when the fire occurred. Thus a text that might have likely been tossed out after its usefulness for that particular event got preserved. Problem is, if that's the case, then we know exactly when the fire took place datable by the eclipse. The text can only be dated to one date: 1375BCE, that's the only date where an eclipse occurs in the "sixth hour" (between 5 and 6 a.m.) out of three other possibles. Further, Ugarit was not destroyed until much later, so this had to be a local building fire, but still a major one. Another level was built over where this text was found. Having noted that, one of the Amarna Letters reported a major fire in the palace that destroyed half the palace and this has been linked to year 12 of Akhenaten. If so, we have a "fixed" date for his 12th year. It also means there is a "fixed" date for the Exodus, which occurs in his first year, that falling in 1386BCE.

Now that is a completely independent but fixed, specific dating for the 1st of Akhenaten and the Exodus, potentially. But that also means this date has to link up with any prophetic dates linked to the Exodus that are in the Bible. For instance, the 70th jubilee of the Jews make up the last jubilee in a week where the Exodus is the first jubilee. The jubilee period is 49 years. The date the Jews ended their last exile and regained their Promised Land was 1947.

So the pressure is on now, based upon the Bible's chronology and prophecy, to see if the Bible's chronology matches a potentially astronomically fixed date for the year of the Exodus.

Well?

Well, it's simple math. Add 49 years to 1947 and you get the end of the "week" of 70 weeks of 49 years. 70 x 49 is 3430 years. The beginning of this week would be 1435 BCE. 3430 - 1996 = 1434 BCE +1 for the missing zero year = 1435 BCE. The Exodus, which is the 50th year following 49, but also the first of the next 49 would be 49 years later, which gives you 1386BCE.

So is that a COINCIDENCE?

Non-believers will definitely say it is or try to find something wrong with the interpretation, etc. But the believers can't see this as a mere coincidence. That's the difference between the believers and the nonbelievers. The believers figure God started that fire in the first place that burned down the palace the same week as that eclipse, but only after the eclipse was recorded!

Problem is, though, that's not the only "coincidence."

2. THE HOLOCAUST NUMBERS: Daniel is a book of prophecy and it goes on and on about this "great tribulation" that is supposed to happen to the Jews. A time when the "holy ones" (the Jews) will be dashed to pieces. (Daniel 12:7). This is a time of "extermination" per Daniel 9. This great tribulation, of course, was to occur to the Jews in the "end times" and was to be an event like none other in history. Daniel 12:1 " And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time."

Now what could this horror of events be in the future that the Jews were to experience? What this is talking about, is the HOLOCAUST! Of course, anyone can claim that, but that's where chronology comes in. It's one thing to apply something to some future event and claim it is fulfilled, it's a little more involved if it has to fit some numbers. I'll share two that has to fit the Holocaust if it fulfills the "great tribulation".

Here's the prophecy about how God will restore the Jews after this great tribulation, the Holocaust:

Zechariah 13:8 8 “And it must occur in all the land,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “[that] two parts in it are what will be cut off [and] expire; and as for the third [part], it will be left remaining in it. 9 And I shall certainly bring the third [part] through the fire; and I shall actually refine them as in the refining of silver, and examine them as in the examining of gold. It, for its part, will call upon my name, and I, for my part, will answer it. I will say, ‘It is my people,’ and it, in its turn, will say, ‘Jehovah is my God.’”

That's right. This "great tribulation" can be identified when two thirds of the Jews are killed and one third survives. When did that happen? The Holocaust.

Now the non-believers are going to say: "Oh no! That's not what this means! That's just a coincidence." But the believers will see this as amazing, fulfilled prophecy. Obviously, the general numbers from the Holocaust are an estimated 9 million Jews before where six million were killed.

But there's another specific chronology that has to be fulfilled. This "great tribulation" is supposed to take place within an "hour", which in the Bible is 7 years. The covenant week of the Jews is made up of 7 days of 490 years each from the time they were in Egypt (1435 BCE) until 49 years after their return to Palestine (1996). Their final jubilee begins the last 49 years of the week. But just before that, this "hour" of extermination and great tribulation is supposed to occur. Thus, to fulfill this, it must happen not only within a 7-year period, but it must come at the end of 62 weeks. The last 70 weeks are divided into 62 weeks (434 years), 1 week (7 years) and 7 weeks (49 years). The "cut off" of the messiah, represented by the Jews, happens at the end of 62 weeks, that is 434 years into the last 70 weeks.

The entire week, though is FIXED by the 70 weeks linked to the coming of Christ in 29 CE. This 70 weeks prophecy ends in 36CE. This ends the THIRD DAY of this week, that is from 455BCE to 36CE. So here are the Seven Days, basically of this 3430-year long week:

DAY 1 1435-945 BCE
DAY 2 945-455 BCE
DAY 3 455-36 CE
DAY 4 36-526 CE
DAY 5 526-1016 AD
DAY 6 1016-1506 AD
DAY 7 1506-1996 AD

Now per the Bible's own chronology, the destruction would occur during a 7-year period following 62 weeks, and be ended by the last 49 years for the Jewish Jubilee, all during the 7th day(the last 490 years of the 3430-year week).

1506 begins that week. 62 weeks is 434 years. Therefore, this "hour" of tribulation when two-thirds of the nation would be destroyed and extermination is mandated by the fixed week to fall specifically between 1940 and 1947. WHY? Because 434 plus 1506 is 1940. Of course, the Holocaust did exterminate two thirds of the Jews and it does occur between 1940 and 1947, in a week that has ZERO FLEXIBILITY because it is fixed by the third day ending in 36CE.

See how this works? The believers are amazed at the fulfillment and the chronology and the non-believers will say, "Coincidence!" or "Anybody can get any numbers they want out of any scripture and make it work!" But they never do it. Talk is cheap.

SUMMARY: So you see, in summary, while there is really not reason to take the Bible seriously as a historical work compared to other historical documents, it gains credibility when you understand and check the prophecies linked to absolute dates.

But the end result is the same. The believers have incresed faith that the Bible is true, but the nonbelievers, who don't believe in the Bible in the first place and certainly don't want to bother with trying to interpret prophecies find more and more reasons not to believe.

So fulfilled prophecy, when correctly applied, does give the believers an edge over the nonbelievers, as far as even beginning to the trust the Bible or take it seriously in the first place.

Larsguy

spin

Get back to us when you know something about the history of the area.

Actually, one "dismisses" it on several counts, but mainly history and the lack of that commodity in the text.

Actually, no, it wasn't. It was a religious text.

No zodiac sign and it wasn't at sunrise. You might like to read something serious about the eclipse. The basic work is Sawyer and Stephenson, "Literary and Astronomical Evidence for a Total Eclipse of the Sun Observed in Ancient Ugarit on 3 May 1375 B.C.", BOAS 33 (1970), 467-489.

Month, yes, day maybe as well. Perhaps even the hour, but not zodiac sign.

The text certainly doesn't say "sixth hour". In fact, it's not clear that the B++ relates to "sixth" at all. It is possible, but it may relate to the Hebrew word B$T, "shame", as in Ishbosheth. One translation gives that "the sun was shamed". There is at least one other possible meaning for the term.

Ummm, what is the connection you are fabricating for the Ugaritic eclipse and Akhnaten? Until you can securely establish it, nothing else of what you say follows it. I don't think you can establish it.

Let's watch you slur a few numbers out of the side of your mouth again. I'll try to keep a straight face.

Try this 1386 + 1947 = 3333

69 * 49 + 1 = 3382
70 * 49 = 3430

Aren't numbers fun?

At this stage, someone asks what does your little excursions into arithmetic, amazing though it might be, have to do with history? I mean beside limp-wristed attempts at grandstanding?

History is about using texts and archaeological evidence to reconstruct what happened. Prophecies, be they prophecies, and be they fulfillable, and be they fulfilled, are not so much about history, as are about prognostication.

Very often it is looney interpretation.

No, it's false data.

Actually it's a book of history, but crypto-history, as it is masquerading as prophecy.

Would you stop this farting in church? We've heard this sort of long drawn out painful, doleful, nauseous rhetoric a little too often. When applied to Daniel, the apologist usually hasn't got an idea what is going on. Fundamentalist christian handling of Daniel is usually gullible to the extreme that Daniel was really and truly written in the sixth century BCE.

Actually, you'll remember that I said it was a history book. It deals with history up to the time of Antiochus IV and his attack on the Jews which included the setting up of an effigy in the Jerusalem temple, the abomination which desolates. But to believe this without me going into great detail will just require you to look at a scholarly commentary of Daniel.

The Holocaust has nothing to do with the abomination which desolates. It has nothing to do with the prince (Antiochus) who will come to destroy the city and the sanctuary. It has no thing to do with the anointed one (the high priest, Onias III) who was cut off. The Holocaust is not in the right ballpark.

You were just talking about Daniel, now you've flitted onto Zechariah...

Well, bugger me! One out of ten is much better than none out of ten.

Who's talking about coincidence? I'm talking about you running all over the place not knowing what you are talking about.

Well, believers who don't know anything about what the texts say.

A lot of believers are more reticent than you would like to think

According the Jewish Virtual Library, there were over 16 million Jews in 1939.

The seven years was from the time the anointed one was removed in 172BCE and the time of the temple rededication in 164BCE. After half a week (ie three and a half years) temple sacrifice was stopped.

Did you notice that the text talked about weeks, not jubilees, so you are of a magnitude of 7 too much.

You are not dealing with Daniel.

Inventive.

You start by not reading the text...

Which believers??

You bet. But what the non-believers will say is, "read what the text says, not what you want it to say."


spin

RED DAVE

For openers, Larwsguy47, before you starting spouting off about the Holocaust, you need to learn some respect for history. The Jewish population of the world in 1939 was about 16.7 million. The Holocaust, hideous as it was (1/3 if my family was wiped out), killed less than half of us.

So, you are completely wrong in a crucial fact, and on that point alone, your entire mountain of speculation collapses.

RED DAVE

Cege

Lars, all that sounds familiar but it's been a very long time since I've read The Late, Great Planet Earth which I'd guess to be your source of info.

The bible as fulfilled prophecy is difficult to prove, and often difficult to even interpret for believers since so many interpretations are available over the centuries. It's easy for believers and/or unbelievers to look back over the OT writings and attempt to apply various lines in it to both historical events (like the Holocaust) and perceived future events (Rapture, End Time, etc).

In the same way people can, if they choose to, look back over Nostradmus', for example, and other 'seers' right up to modern day and stretch fit their predictions into some actual events.

Fixed dates in ancient history are only fixed, for the most part, in the eye of the individual beholder. There are variations cited among all kinds of scholars for many (maybe most) events, including the birth year of the NT Jesus, and that was only roughly 2000 years ago.

Do you know of some scientific and relatively undisputed evidence to support the history as related in Genesis and Exodus? Let's have a look at that.

(Not long ago the minister of my church (a young Ph.D.) cited "Eqyptian chariot wheels" that Wyatt claims to have found in the Gulf of Aqaba as historical proof of the parting of the Red Sea by Moses and the resulting deaths of Pharoh's army when the waters of the Sea came back together.

I can't accept Wyatt as being the least bit reliable or believable and I was disappointed in what I consider to be the minister's naivete. But maybe you can find some recent scientific support for Wyatt's claim, or something else with substance that will support a Genesis story)

Joan of Bark

Generally, if you spout enough prophesies, some of them are bound to come "true", especially when they are vague and interpreted liberally. Even a broken (analog) clock is correct twice a day ...

Larsguy47

Thanks for your comments but here is MY INTERPRETATION of the text:

First, I believe it is expressed in Egyptian concepts of astronomy. The Egyptians had a concept of the hour. So the first line is very fundamental, giving the technical timing of the eclipse event, which is hour, day, month.

btt.ym.hdt.hyr
btt = six
ym = day
hdt = new moon
hyr = Hiyarru

Thus: sixth hour, day of the new moon of Hiyarru.

Simple basic.

The next line simply uses Egyptian concepts of the sun rising, represented by the sun entering through the "GATE" of Hathor. The Egyptians related that when the sun set Hathor ate it, then over the 12 hours of night it passed through 12 gates and then at sunrise she gave birth to the sun through her vulva. Thus representations of the apis calf with the sun disk coming through two sycamore trees represented the sun entering through Hathor's gate. Since this was a solar eclipse and the stars vanished shortly after sunrise, the zodiac house the eclipse was associated with had to be observed just before sunrise. So to reference the zodiac house, the text simply notes which house the sun rose in. RESHEP in the Egyptian pantheon, as you know, is depicted as a bull with a tassel, the identity of Taurus. Reshep is addressed as the "Lord of Heaven" which is equivalent to the "Bel of Heaven" which is equivalent to "Bull of Heaven" which is the title of Taurus in Sumerian texts. Therefore, line 2 simply is a reference to which zodiac house the sun rose in, a standard reference to astronomical events.


rbt.shpsh.tgrh.rsp

rbt = enter
shpsh = sun
tgrh = HER GATE
rsp = RESHEP

THUS: The sun entered Hathor's gate in Rehsep/Taurus.

Of course, this is cross-checked for the date wihch does confirm indeed, that the sun was in Taurus.

So we're done.

Now FR Stephenson had already identified 1375BCE as the correct reference and as you know, the Amarna Period and Akhenaten occur during this century. Thus it is only of critical note that the eclipse in 1375BCE does, indeed occur during the 6th hour, which is between 5am and 6am.

The REVERSE of the text simply gives a statement of a liver reading that was bad news.

So sorry, RESHEP, the Bull, is the zodiac reference for Taurus in this case, which makes this eclipse reference extremely standard. The eclipse itself is identified by WHERE and WHEN it occurs. That is, in which zodiac house and the date. Sometimes the time of the eclipse is given as in this case.

Gotta run. Thanks for your comments. More later.

Larsguy47

RED DAVE

From RED DAVE:
I would appreciate reply to this major error in your endless, miasmic calculation.

RED DAVE

GenesisNemesis

Larsguy47,

You say you believe that everything can't be proven, yet here you try to prove the historicity of the Bible. Why?

Internet spazzed...

Larsguy47

Here are the statistics, generally, a reference to the resettled Jews in Europe who were actually subjected to the Holocaust.

Larsguy47

This is a classic example of the scientific straw man argument. The presumption that science can examine all aspects of REALITY. It can't. For instance, God is invisible yet science is out there desperately looking for him with their telescopes. Science can analyze the "Mona Lisa" and tell us how many atoms it is made of, where the paint came from, how old it is. But can it tell us who painted it? Or reflect that it is beautiful? No.

So science can only give you PART of what our reality is. It can't address the abstract. Emotionsl, love, beauty, honor, honesty, morality. Science hasn't got a clue. So when you rely only on science to prove things, its like trying to experience and understand a jazz singer and all you have is a black and white still photo to do it. No recording, no moving picture. It's just limited.

So you need more than science to get the whole picture. People who don't understand this though, are often misguided by the compromised results.

Thanks for sharing!

Larsguy47