spin

That would explain why Matt Luke and John were all anti-Jewish. John's anti-Jewish sentiment was later attenuated to be anti-Pharisaism. It would explain why Paul gets called the apostle to the uncircumcised.


spin

dog-on

Paul was a pagan, the religion of his fathers. He persecuted Jews. He then tried to re-write Judaism by discarding the mosaic laws.



Wham, Bam, Christianity began...

IMO...

spin

Calling Paul a "pagan" is anachronous. He also both claims to be a Jew and his content shows him strongly Jewish in thought, despite the fact that it is sorely mixed with Hellenized religious ideas.


spin

dog-on

The term "pagan" is anachronistic, but was indeed the term that came to be used to describe non-judeo based religions. I am not sure what the actual religion of Tarsus was in the the first century, but it would most likely have been later termed pagan.

The author was familiar with the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures. The assertion that he was actually a Jew is a later addition, to "de-marcionize" the apostle of the heretics.

Clivedurdle

May I attempt a summary - are we looking at a mixture of cock up and conspiracy?

The Pax Romana was based on being relaxed about your beliefs, so long as you showed allegiance to Rome by sacrificing to the gods. Judaism had an historic get out of jail free card on this, but with serious strife this became very problematic.

In the background everyone was continually inventing new religions, mixing and matching ideas, a little bit of this, a bit of that. Paul invents this Lord Jesus Christ, probably from a primarily more than one god background, but it is an attempt to unite monotheistic and polytheistic thinking. Mark et al develop the idea, possibly with deliberate Roman help - it may have been seen as a way out of the impasse between these religious viewpoints, but it all goes horribly wrong when a sect of this new religion - remember it started with clear "gods" attitudes with references to pisces and logos, gets taken over by a group who explicitly go monotheistic and is extremely rude about polytheists - calling them country bumpkins or pagans, and eventually destroy Victory. There is an interesting interlude with Julian.

dog-on

I just can't get around the "elephant-in-the room".

This being the absolute personality re-write for God between the old and new testaments.

The only thing that really makes sense, relating to Paul, is a view of the creator/demiurge versus the good/excellent, yet previously unknown deity. The law versus grace.

Polytheistic, first century, Jews just seems to be the least plausible answer, IMO...but who knows...

dog-on

Spin, what is the evidence for Mithracism in Tarsus during the first century?

Did Plutarch describe this religion as having been practiced in asia minor in the first century bc?

Could the religion of Paul's fathers have been this religion?

spin

First the whole eastern and central parts of Anatolia were under the direct influence of the Persians from about 600 BCE to 330 BCE. The Dynasties which survived in Cappadocia, Pontus, Commagene and Armenia had strong connections with Mithra. The kings of Pontus were often called Mithridates. Strabo tells us that Armenia followed the rites of Mithra amongst others. There are reports of the pirates in Cilicia (which borders on Cappadocia and Commagene and which was part of the Armenian empire at one stage) who were worshippers of Mithra and when Pompey dealt with the Cilician pirates, he resettled many in a town in the plain where Tarsus is found. Cilcilia was under the same forces as the other Anatolian realms I mentioned and Mithra is specifically known to have been worshipped there. However, what the form of the worship was is unknown, except for the fact that they had strange rites on Mt Olympus.

I see no reason to believe that Paul wasn't being honest when he calls himself a Pharisee, a Jew under the law. That was his heritage. The only question is what happens to the Judaism of his community after a few centuries in a Hellenistic context?


spin

dog-on

Thanks, Spin.

Was Stoicism also part of the culture of Tarsus at this time?

...and if you have a few moments, take a look at this and let me know what you think.

Citizens of Heaven.
Philippians 3:2-21 as a Deutero-Pauline Passage

spin

Stoicism was a strong philosophical movement throughout the Mediterranean. I don't know of any famous Stoics from the specific region, but it is highly likely that Stoicism was there.

Hopefully you ask because of my mention of Paul being a Pharisee, which is stated in this passage in Philippians. There are source critical issues with the epistle, but I don't think there is any need to get into them. The biographical details are consistent with Gal 1:13-23. Although I see little reason to abandon them, I don't need them either in that Galatians would suffice to discount any overtly non-Jewish background. (It was just briefer to mention that he called himself a Pharisee at the time.)


spin