Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Soul Invictus · 02-05-2004, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
How much fun do you want?

You can demonstrate that "born again" is a mistranslation of "born from above" which means only those determined to be saved can be saved in Jn. If you are arguing with your basic fundi this will pass over his head like . . . like . . . a Destroyer on a warm night in Cairo.

--J.D.

Could you go more into this for me? I was not aware of this. Could you PM me any necessary links/information?

Regards,

Soul Invictus

Doctor X · 02-05-2004, 05:18 PM

Soul:

Basically, the term is anothen and I am too lazy to convert into Greek! The -then places the word ano or "above" into the ablative which is "from above."

The word is only translated as "again" in this passage. It is a curious passage because Nicodemus centers on the obvious problem--which is always wrong in Jn--which is how to become born from above--finding his mother and all of that. Junior is stressing Nicodemus is not "from above."

In other passages, Junior declares himself ek ano--"from above"--whilst his critics are ek kato--"from below."

Another poster who responded to my longer post on this someplace noted that some modern translations properly translate the passage as "from above."

--J.D.

Toto · 02-05-2004, 06:04 PM

John 3:3: In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[1] " 4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[2] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You [3] must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

[1] 3:3 Or born from above; also in verse 7
[2] 3:6 Or but spirit
[3] 3:7 The Greek is plural.

[NIV]

Not the clearest passage in the Bible.

02-05-2004, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
Mk has a great one where Junior explains his parrable and why he has to explain them to the disciples--they just cannot get it. However, he states he will not explain it for others "lest they turn and be saved."

\

Interesting! I did not know that and can see Mark write something like that. It means that salvation is not a rational event and cannot be done upon persuasion.

02-05-2004, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
Soul:

In other passages, Junior declares himself ek ano--"from above"--whilst his critics are ek kato--"from below."

.

Significant here is Jn.1:13 where a distinction is made between "from God" (is above) and from "carnal desire" (is below). This is carried forward to Rev. 13 where "from above" comes out of the sea and "from below" comes from the earth.

Sauron · 02-05-2004, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rocket Sauce
I would be quite appreciative if anyone could offer up some biblical content that would support this statement:

God prefers a world in which everybody hears the gospel and is freely saved.

I need these by 6:30 today for a potential argument. Thanks for any help.

Scripture verse?

PE2 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

gregor · 02-06-2004, 05:48 AM

And my own personal favorite text showing that universal salvation is NOT the end-game:

2Th 2:11 -
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie [and not receive eternal salvation].

Huh. Please don't tell me I'm agreeing with Craig.

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02-05-2004, 05:18 PM	#12
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Soul: Basically, the term is anothen and I am too lazy to convert into Greek! The -then places the word ano or "above" into the ablative which is "from above." The word is only translated as "again" in this passage. It is a curious passage because Nicodemus centers on the obvious problem--which is always wrong in Jn--which is how to become born from above--finding his mother and all of that. Junior is stressing Nicodemus is not "from above." In other passages, Junior declares himself ek ano--"from above"--whilst his critics are ek kato--"from below." Another poster who responded to my longer post on this someplace noted that some modern translations properly translate the passage as "from above." --J.D.

02-05-2004, 06:04 PM	#13
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	John 3:3: In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[1] " 4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[2] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You [3] must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." [1] 3:3 Or born from above; also in verse 7 [2] 3:6 Or but spirit [3] 3:7 The Greek is plural. [NIV] Not the clearest passage in the Bible.

02-06-2004, 05:48 AM	#17
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	And my own personal favorite text showing that universal salvation is NOT the end-game: 2Th 2:11 - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie [and not receive eternal salvation]. Huh. Please don't tell me I'm agreeing with Craig.

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