Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rocket Sauce · 02-04-2004, 02:47 PM

I would be quite appreciative if anyone could offer up some biblical content that would support this statement:

God prefers a world in which everybody hears the gospel and is freely saved.

I need these by 6:30 today for a potential argument. Thanks for any help.

Toto · 02-04-2004, 03:05 PM

We like to have a more realistic deadline for our assignments.

I don't know exactly what you are arguing, but googling "universal salvation" and a few other key terms gives

God Is Love - although the Bible quotes there don't seem to prove much to me.

atheism.about.com on universal salvation

Quote:

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. John 12:31-32

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 1Cor. 15:21-22

Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the Sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme. Mark 3:28

Therefore just as one man�s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man�s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all. Rom 11:32

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, "Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29

Universal Salvation - argues against this

Quote:

Universal Salvation proclaims that God will save all people and that everyone is going to Heaven. This belief is growing among the 'Christian' community and is based on several excerpts from the Bible. Among the key verses the belief in Universal Salvation rests upon are:
" -God is love."
(1 John 4:8)
" The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
(2 Peter 3:9)
"- who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
(1 Timothy 2:4)

Mageth · 02-04-2004, 03:14 PM

God prefers a world in which everybody hears the gospel and is freely saved.

Well, the obvious is John 3:16-17: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

And then there's 2 Peter 3:9 (mentioned above): The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Toto · 02-04-2004, 03:17 PM

Here's another link, repeating some of the above:

http://pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm#2.

Doctor X · 02-04-2004, 03:18 PM

How much fun do you want?

You can demonstrate that "born again" is a mistranslation of "born from above" which means only those determined to be saved can be saved in Jn. If you are arguing with your basic fundi this will pass over his head like . . . like . . . a Destroyer on a warm night in Cairo.

Mk has a great one where Junior explains his parrable and why he has to explain them to the disciples--they just cannot get it. However, he states he will not explain it for others "lest they turn and be saved."

If you want OT, go to the wonderful Amelekites whom YHWH demands to be killed--every woman and child--even the cute ones--and then squishes Saul for not killing every last one of them. Were they given the option for "forgiveness."

You can also cite the child sacrifices.

--J.D.

Doctor X · 02-04-2004, 03:19 PM

. . . of course . . . those are rather against the point you are trying to support.

Wanders away muttering to himself. . . .

--J.D.

Rocket Sauce · 02-04-2004, 03:36 PM

Thanks a ton. The Timothy and 2nd Peter verses are money. Sorry about the short notice. William Lane Craig is in town and claimed earlier today that: "If God is all-loving, He prefers a world in which everybody hears the gospel and is freely saved." was an unwarranted assumption. I love refuting Christians with their own book, so hopefully I'll be able to throw a few of these verses back at him tonight.

Toto · 02-04-2004, 03:38 PM

Craig is a professional. He's probably got a response to each of those ready.

He's probably looking forward to being in heaven and listening to the screams of the damned from below.

edited to add - let us know how it goes.

Rocket Sauce · 02-04-2004, 03:40 PM

Perhaps so, but I lost just about any respect for him earlier today. I managed to corner him 1 on 1 and experienced his question dodging mastery.

Angrillori · 02-04-2004, 04:01 PM

As to the OP, isn't the so-called 'Great Commission' to 'go forth and make disciples of all nations'? Matt 28:18-20 if I remember correctly.

Jebus' last words to his disciples....important? Heartfelt? You think?

That would seem to help the 'God wants everyone to be saved' bit.

There was another 'wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth' line whose reference I can't remember at the moment. But Bible Gateway 'knowledge of the truth' in NIV and you'll find it.

Edit to add:

Duh. I see the 'knowledge of the truth line' has been mentioned already. And I see the deadline seems to have passed.

02-04-2004, 02:47 PM	#1
Rocket Sauce New Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Iowa State University Posts: 3	Need help quickly I would be quite appreciative if anyone could offer up some biblical content that would support this statement: God prefers a world in which everybody hears the gospel and is freely saved. I need these by 6:30 today for a potential argument. Thanks for any help.

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02-04-2004, 03:14 PM	#3
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	God prefers a world in which everybody hears the gospel and is freely saved. Well, the obvious is John 3:16-17: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. And then there's 2 Peter 3:9 (mentioned above): The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

02-04-2004, 03:17 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Here's another link, repeating some of the above: http://pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm#2.

02-04-2004, 03:18 PM	#5
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	How much fun do you want? You can demonstrate that "born again" is a mistranslation of "born from above" which means only those determined to be saved can be saved in Jn. If you are arguing with your basic fundi this will pass over his head like . . . like . . . a Destroyer on a warm night in Cairo. Mk has a great one where Junior explains his parrable and why he has to explain them to the disciples--they just cannot get it. However, he states he will not explain it for others "lest they turn and be saved." If you want OT, go to the wonderful Amelekites whom YHWH demands to be killed--every woman and child--even the cute ones--and then squishes Saul for not killing every last one of them. Were they given the option for "forgiveness." You can also cite the child sacrifices. --J.D.

02-04-2004, 03:19 PM	#6
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	. . . of course . . . those are rather against the point you are trying to support. Wanders away muttering to himself. . . . --J.D.

02-04-2004, 03:36 PM	#7
Rocket Sauce New Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Iowa State University Posts: 3	Thanks a ton. The Timothy and 2nd Peter verses are money. Sorry about the short notice. William Lane Craig is in town and claimed earlier today that: "If God is all-loving, He prefers a world in which everybody hears the gospel and is freely saved." was an unwarranted assumption. I love refuting Christians with their own book, so hopefully I'll be able to throw a few of these verses back at him tonight.

02-04-2004, 03:38 PM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Craig is a professional. He's probably got a response to each of those ready. He's probably looking forward to being in heaven and listening to the screams of the damned from below. edited to add - let us know how it goes.

02-04-2004, 03:40 PM	#9
Rocket Sauce New Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Iowa State University Posts: 3	Perhaps so, but I lost just about any respect for him earlier today. I managed to corner him 1 on 1 and experienced his question dodging mastery.

02-04-2004, 04:01 PM	#10
Angrillori Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: A world less bright without WinAce. Posts: 7,482	As to the OP, isn't the so-called 'Great Commission' to 'go forth and make disciples of all nations'? Matt 28:18-20 if I remember correctly. Jebus' last words to his disciples....important? Heartfelt? You think? That would seem to help the 'God wants everyone to be saved' bit. There was another 'wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth' line whose reference I can't remember at the moment. But Bible Gateway 'knowledge of the truth' in NIV and you'll find it. Edit to add: Duh. I see the 'knowledge of the truth line' has been mentioned already. And I see the deadline seems to have passed.

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