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Toto · 03-20-2008, 03:45 PM

Variety

Quote:

"Agora," Amenabar's second English-language film after Nicole Kidman starrer "The Others," is set in Roman Egypt in the fourth century A.D. Weisz plays astrologer-philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria, who fights to save the collected wisdom of the ancient world. Her slave Davus (Minghella) is torn between his love for his mistress and the possibility of gaining his freedom by joining the rising tide of Christianity.

Hollywood Reporter

Quote:

Set in Roman Egypt in the fourth century, "Agora" tells the story of the legendary astronomer Hypatia (Weisz), trapped in the legendary Library of Alexandria, and her fight to save the old world's wisdom from the religious riots sweeping the streets of Alexandria. Her slave Davus (Minghella) wrestles with his yearning for freedom and his professed love for his mistress.

"No matter how many centuries have passed since the destruction of the library of Alexandria, the story 'Agora' tells is totally relevant today," Bovaira said.

. . .

"Our entire team is devoted to bringing ancient Alexandria back to life by using the hyperrealist approach," Amenabar said. "We want the audience to see, feel and smell a remote civilization as if it were as real as the present day."

Guardian film blog

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. . . this is great material for a film (without too much biographical fact to inhibit invention) and the writers have, naturally, inserted a romantic subplot: Hypatia's slave, Davus, is, according to the makers, "torn between his secret love for her and the freedom he could attain by joining the rising tide of Christianity".

As rioters gather outside, Hypatia is to be trapped inside the library - the greatest repository of knowledge in the world, which might have contained half a million scrolls. Judging from the filmmakers' statement, it seems that Hypatia will be trying to save the library from going up in flames (which it did, though the real date of this cataclysm is disputed). . .

Of course, a slave would not gain freedom by becoming a Christian - just an admonishment to obey his master from St. Paul and wait for his reward in heaven.

I haven't seen a mention of any historical consultants. Why let the facts get in the way of a good story?

the_cave · 03-20-2008, 04:18 PM

Yeah, it sounds like an awesome film--if only it were set on, I don't know, Venus or something!

Worth seeing just to catch Weisz as a classical philosophy professor/librarian

Furiae · 03-20-2008, 07:47 PM

So, I thought the story of the Christians burning the library of Alexandria turned out to be basically invented by Gibbon?

the_cave · 03-20-2008, 08:01 PM

Well, yes, apparently so...

But it's still a dramatic and completely horrifying story--I wonder how they will treat it.

The addition of the Library is probably unnecessary, IMO--it would be a meaningful film even without it. The age was barbaric enough without adding in misleading history. I do hope they do a good job. Wiesz will probably save the day. Anyway, this is getting a bit off-topic from BC&H...

Toto · 03-20-2008, 08:15 PM

There is a review of the evidence of the burning of the Library of Alexandria here, citing this article.

Christians want to defend earlier Christians from the charge of burning books, and I expect Bede to pop in and link to his apologetic site. But, while the issue is complex, Christians were probably not blameless.

Quote:

Theophilus was Patriarch of Alexandria from 385 to 412 AD. During his reign the Temple of Serapis was converted into a Christian Church (probably around 391 AD) and it is likely that many documents were destroyed then. The Temple of Serapis was estimated to hold about ten percent of the overall Library of Alexandria's holdings. After his death, his nephew Cyril became Patriarch. Shortly after that, riots broke out when Hierax, a Christian monk, was publicly killed by order of Orestes the city Prefect. Orestes was said to be under the influence of Hypatia, a female philosopher and daughter of the "last member of the Library of Alexandria". Although it should be noted that some count Hypatia herself as the last Head Librarian.

Alexandria had long been known for it's violent and volatile politics. Christians, Jews and Pagans all lived together in the city. One ancient writer claimed that there was no people who loved a fight more than those of Alexandria. Immediately after the death of Hierax a group of Jews who had helped instigate his killing lured more Christians into the street at night by proclaiming that the Church was on fire. When the Christians rushed out the largely Jewish mob slew many of them. After this there was mass havoc as Christians retaliated against both the Jews and the Pagans - one of which was Hypatia. The story varies slightly depending upon who tells it but she was taken by the Christians, dragged through the streets and murdered.

Some regard the death of Hypatia as the final destruction of the Library. Others blame Theophilus for destroying the last of the scrolls when he razed the Temple of Serapis prior to making it a Christian church. Still others have confused both incidents and blamed Theophilus for simultaneously murdering Hypatia and destroying the Library though it is obvious Theophilus died sometime prior to Hypatia.

. . .

Furiae · 03-20-2008, 09:18 PM

Well, I think its too bad in any case. It's just going to appear to Christians as another example of pop culture demonization of Christianity (which you know they already believe to be the case). And this is like the Da Vinci Code - something basically made up, easily disputable, and real criticisms of atrocities in Christian history are ignored because the one that gets all the attention isn't even justified!

MarkA · 03-21-2008, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Furiae

Well, I think its too bad in any case. It's just going to appear to Christians as another example of pop culture demonization of Christianity (which you know they already believe to be the case). And this is like the Da Vinci Code - something basically made up, easily disputable, and real criticisms of atrocities in Christian history are ignored because the one that gets all the attention isn't even justified!

Hypatia was skinned alive by monks using sharp shells (she was probably gang raped beforehand by these saintly men but of course since they were supposed to be celibate this did not figure in the later accounts). She was renowned as a philosopher and she was known for her beauty. What is not justified?

Much of the premise of the movie we know so far appears to reflect the history. It will not be a doco it will be drama. The more people realise the basic violence and pathological hatred of women that christianity embodies the better I say.

Roger Pearse · 03-21-2008, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkA

Hypatia was skinned alive by monks using sharp shells (she was probably gang raped beforehand by these saintly men but of course since they were supposed to be celibate this did not figure in the later accounts).

Can you produce some ancient sources which include these claims?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

mountainman · 03-21-2008, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkA

Hypatia was skinned alive by monks using sharp shells (she was probably gang raped beforehand by these saintly men but of course since they were supposed to be celibate this did not figure in the later accounts).

Can you produce some ancient sources which include these claims?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Socrates Scholasticus:
The Murder of Hypatia (late 4th Cent.)
from Ecclesiastical History,Bk VI: Chap. 15

Quote:

THERE was a woman at Alexandria named Hypatia, daughter of the philosopher Theon, who made such attainments in literature and science, as to far surpass all the philosophers of her own time. Having succeeded to the school of Plato and Plotinus, she explained the principles of philosophy to her auditors, many of whom came from a distance to receive her instructions.

On account of the self-possession and ease of manner, which she had acquired in consequence of the cultivation of her mind, she not unfrequently appeared in public in presence of the magistrates. Neither did she feel abashed in coming to an assembly of men. For all men on account of her extraordinary dignity and virtue admired her the more. Yet even she fell a victim to the political jealousy which at that time prevailed. For as she had frequent interviews with Orestes, it was calumniously reported among the Christian populace, that it was she who prevented Orestes from being reconciled to the bishop. Some of them therefore, hurried away by a fierce and bigoted zeal, whose ringleader was a reader named Peter, waylaid her returning home, and dragging her from her carriage, they took her to the church called Caesareum, where they completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles. After tearing her body in pieces, they took her mangled limbs to a place called Cinaron, and there burnt them. This affair brought not the least opprobrium, not only upon Cyril, but also upon the whole Alexandrian church. And surely nothing can be farther from the spirit of Christianity than the allowance of massacres, fights, and transactions of that sort. This happened in the month of March during Lent, in the fourth year of Cyril's episcopate, under the tenth consulate of Honorius, and the sixth of Theodosius.

Socrates Scholasticus:
The Murder of Hypatia (late 4th Cent.)
from Ecclesiastical History,Bk VI: Chap. 15

I recall somewhere reading that Carl Sagan conjectured that it sas in fact the tax-exempt Cyril who torched the library of Alexandria, the same Cyril of whom Nestorius writes:

Source:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NESTORIUS on CYRIL

Cyril then is the persecutor and the accuser,
while I am the persecuted;
but it was the Council which heard and judged my words and the emperor who assembled [it]. If then he 1 was on the bench of judges, what indeed shall I say of the bench of judges? He was the whole tribunal, for everything which he said they all said together, and without doubt it is certain that he in person took the place of a tribunal for them. For if all the judges had been assembled and the accusers had risen in their place and the accused also likewise, all of them would equally have had freedom of speech, instead of his being in everything both accuser and emperor and judge. He did all things with authority, after excluding from authority him 2 who had been charged by the emperor, and he exalted himself; and he assembled all those whom he wanted, both those who were far off and those who were near, and he constituted himself the tribunal.

And I was summoned by Cyril
who had assembled the Council,
even by Cyril who was the chief thereof.
Who was judge? Cyril.
And who was the accuser? Cyril.
Who was bishop of Rome? Cyril.
Cyril was everything.
Cyril was the bishop of Alexandria and
took the place of the holy and saintly
bishop of Rome, Celestinus.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Furiae · 03-21-2008, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkA

Hypatia was skinned alive by monks using sharp shells (she was probably gang raped beforehand by these saintly men but of course since they were supposed to be celibate this did not figure in the later accounts). She was renowned as a philosopher and she was known for her beauty. What is not justified?

Yes, it would have been a better idea to stick to that part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkA

Much of the premise of the movie we know so far appears to reflect the history. It will not be a doco it will be drama. The more people realise the basic violence and pathological hatred of women that christianity embodies the better I say.

There really doesn't seem to be any evidence for the theory that Christians destroyed the library, so as I said, adding that into it will just overshadow the reality of any Christian brutality with unjustified claims.

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03-20-2008, 04:18 PM	#2
the_cave Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 1,443	Yeah, it sounds like an awesome film--if only it were set on, I don't know, Venus or something! Worth seeing just to catch Weisz as a classical philosophy professor/librarian

03-20-2008, 07:47 PM	#3
Furiae Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 72	So, I thought the story of the Christians burning the library of Alexandria turned out to be basically invented by Gibbon?

03-20-2008, 08:01 PM	#4
the_cave Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 1,443	Well, yes, apparently so... But it's still a dramatic and completely horrifying story--I wonder how they will treat it. The addition of the Library is probably unnecessary, IMO--it would be a meaningful film even without it. The age was barbaric enough without adding in misleading history. I do hope they do a good job. Wiesz will probably save the day. Anyway, this is getting a bit off-topic from BC&H...

03-20-2008, 09:18 PM	#6
Furiae Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 72	Well, I think its too bad in any case. It's just going to appear to Christians as another example of pop culture demonization of Christianity (which you know they already believe to be the case). And this is like the Da Vinci Code - something basically made up, easily disputable, and real criticisms of atrocities in Christian history are ignored because the one that gets all the attention isn't even justified!

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