Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Noggin · 01-25-2006, 05:41 PM

I was reading some basic google results on the Dead Sea Scrolls and found that Mormonism lays a contorted claim that the DSS kind of prove their religion to be "true" based on obscure comparisons from how the kabalistic jews of Qumran lived and believed.

That was a stretch.

So I googled "Islam proved by Dead Sea Scrolls" and found an eye full there as to how the Muslims devoured the DSS and twisted the contents to "prove" Islam is true and Christianity is false.

I had to stop due to time constraints. I am sure the Catholics have a spin as well as the literalist Jehovah's Witnesses sect.

Has anyone heard of an objective study done on how the Dead Sea Scrolls might prove any one religion to be The One and Only religion of god?

I would be very grateful if you could share.

Noggin

David B · 01-26-2006, 01:45 AM

Let us assume that some time next week a load of papyrusses are discovered in Egypt which contain tales of Osiris and Ra etc. Perhaps with accounts of miracles performed by priests invoking their names.

Do you think that they would have anything to do with the truth of the ancient Egyptian religion?

I don't - nor do I see that the Dead Sea Scrolls could do any better.

David B

FreezBee · 01-26-2006, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noggin

Has anyone heard of an objective study done on how the Dead Sea Scrolls might prove any one religion to be The One and Only religion of god?

Are you being serious here? An "objective study ..." :rolling:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noggin

I would be very grateful if you could share.

Noggin

Wouldn't we all? :grin:

- FreezBee

Noggin · 01-26-2006, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreezBee

Are you being serious here? An "objective study ..." :rolling:
- FreezBee
[/FONT]

Aw, don't make me feel sheepish.:blush:

I gather that someone could look at the scrolls objectively and state what they really say. I am new to the critical line of thinking mode. Gotta start somewhere. The fact that I found several religions already placing spin on the contents to validate their religion places my hopes in limbo.

Why couldn't someone look at the scrolls objectively? Your response indicates that you feel no one can be objective with the contents.

the type of objectivity I seek:

Mormons think that their book of mormon is a factual history of a group of Jewish pioneers who crossed the ocean and settled in South America and grew into a huge civilization. Amerindians are their decendents.

Objective study finds that there has never been found any archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon claims. Objective study also discloses that no semetic DNA has been found in any of the South American people (it is all of Asian origination).

That is objectivity.

There should be something to debunk the hijacking of the Dead Sea Scroll contents to prove such and such religion is "true".

Okay. I will quote a portion of what was published in the Mormon monthly magazine for February:

Quote:

The source credit
http://www.lds.org/churchmagazines/2...2006Ensign.pdf

Dead Sea Scrolls Support Joseph Smith
"...One notable difference among the scrolls points us to Joseph Smith. The Prophet Joseph Smith’s claim to have translated the Book of Mormon from [numerous bound sheaves of] metal plates was given significant credibility by the discovery of a unique document at Qumran. Among the many texts unearthed was the singular find of Cave 3 in 1952—a scroll composed of a long, thin metal sheet called the Copper Scroll. This was one of the first texts to be uncovered by professional archaeologists and contains a description of buried treasure. Although people have looked carefully, no one has found any of the treasure."

(Noggin comments: I know that Smith was lampooned for his gold plates. Smith has the idea of buried treasure injected into the Book of Mormon.)

Those who lived at Qumran were temple covenanting people... JUST LIKE US Mormons

The basic ideal for the covenant makers at Qumran was to
live as though they were in the midst of the temple itself every minute of every day. They sought to make their isolated community a virtual open-air temple and often wore white linen robes to symbolize the level of purity they sought to attain. Some beliefs and practices described in the scrolls could suggest either a pre-Christian era “gospel�? community at Qumran or a long-lost group of ancient Latter-day Saints [Mormons] with their emphasis on consecration, temple-worthy behavior, a strict probationary period before full membership, a hierarchical priesthood organization, an expanded body of scripture, the apostate condition of the world, the term "Saints" applied to all covenant members, new ordinances and religious festivals

Sorry. I had to subject you to that. The Muslim spin is not much better. They state that the Dead Sea Scrolls prove Islam as God's true religion.

I suppose I could be my own source of objectivity, which is what you probably were trying to say tongue in cheek. I can dismiss all of what the various religions spin, sure. I was just hoping for an article done by some scholar.

Noggin

FreezBee · 01-26-2006, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noggin

I suppose I could be my own source of objectivity, which is what you probably were trying to say tongue in cheek. I can dismiss all of what the various religions spin, sure. I was just hoping for an article done by some scholar.

Ok, I see, what you mean - the problem though is that an objective study of the DSS doesn't really prove any religion to be the true religion. The DSS contain many variants of the biblical texts, so we are more in the dark as to what the Bible said than we were before the finding of the DSS.

- FreezBee

Toto · 01-26-2006, 11:33 AM

I suspect the OP is a bit tongue in cheek, but the best online source for you might be Bibleinterp.com, in particular the essays here, especially Redating the Dead Sea Scroll Deposits at Qumran: the Legacy of an error in Archaeological Interpretation.

Cat59 · 01-26-2006, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noggin

Aw, don't make me feel sheepish.:blush:

I gather that someone could look at the scrolls objectively and state what they really say. I am new to the critical line of thinking mode. Gotta start somewhere. The fact that I found several religions already placing spin on the contents to validate their religion places my hopes in limbo.

Why couldn't someone look at the scrolls objectively? Your response indicates that you feel no one can be objective with the contents.

the type of objectivity I seek:

Mormons think that their book of mormon is a factual history of a group of Jewish pioneers who crossed the ocean and settled in South America and grew into a huge civilization. Amerindians are their decendents.

Objective study finds that there has never been found any archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon claims. Objective study also discloses that no semetic DNA has been found in any of the South American people (it is all of Asian origination).

That is objectivity.

There should be something to debunk the hijacking of the Dead Sea Scroll contents to prove such and such religion is "true".

Okay. I will quote a portion of what was published in the Mormon monthly magazine for February:

Sorry. I had to subject you to that. The Muslim spin is not much better. They state that the Dead Sea Scrolls prove Islam as God's true religion.

I suppose I could be my own source of objectivity, which is what you probably were trying to say tongue in cheek. I can dismiss all of what the various religions spin, sure. I was just hoping for an article done by some scholar.

Noggin

Jonathan Campbell's Deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls contains a couple of chapters debunking many of the myths asociated with them, mainly with regard to Christianity. Haven't got any links, sorry, but his last chapter discusses in part the difficulties that have arisen with people making their own subjective understanding of what the scrolls mean based on their background (mainly refering to Jewish and Christian interpretation, but it could equally apply to any one else.) Give the huge subject matter available and the fact that many of the scrolls were fragments (over 1000) of varying lengths, it's easy to see how any group can latch on to one or two little pieces of writing and build it up into evidence for their particular group.

Chris Weimer · 01-26-2006, 03:24 PM

The Dead Sea Scrolls do not prove any religion right whatsoever. The only light it offers is an elucidation in the minds of Jews at the turn of the first millennium.

Noggin · 02-01-2006, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

The Dead Sea Scrolls do not prove any religion right whatsoever. The only light it offers is an elucidation in the minds of Jews at the turn of the first millennium.

I did some more research.

Brash conclusion:

Those who lived out their days at Qumran were nothing short of cult members. Celibate, puritanical, dressed in white, separatists with a skewed Us vs Them mentality, monk like, literal scriptorians, saw the world around them as pure evil and refused to partake in it, and... walked around fully expecting their messiah to show up any day.

There have been a few religions identify themselves with the community at Qumran's lifestyle. Mormons just wrote an article on how similar DSS people were in mind to the Mormon mind set. Chilling. And they say that they aren't a cult.

Noggin

01-25-2006, 05:41 PM	#1
Noggin Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Monterey, CA Posts: 161	Do the Dead Sea Scrolls prove any one religion True? I was reading some basic google results on the Dead Sea Scrolls and found that Mormonism lays a contorted claim that the DSS kind of prove their religion to be "true" based on obscure comparisons from how the kabalistic jews of Qumran lived and believed. That was a stretch. So I googled "Islam proved by Dead Sea Scrolls" and found an eye full there as to how the Muslims devoured the DSS and twisted the contents to "prove" Islam is true and Christianity is false. I had to stop due to time constraints. I am sure the Catholics have a spin as well as the literalist Jehovah's Witnesses sect. Has anyone heard of an objective study done on how the Dead Sea Scrolls might prove any one religion to be The One and Only religion of god? I would be very grateful if you could share. Noggin

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01-26-2006, 01:45 AM	#2
David B Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Wales Posts: 11,620	Let us assume that some time next week a load of papyrusses are discovered in Egypt which contain tales of Osiris and Ra etc. Perhaps with accounts of miracles performed by priests invoking their names. Do you think that they would have anything to do with the truth of the ancient Egyptian religion? I don't - nor do I see that the Dead Sea Scrolls could do any better. David B

01-26-2006, 11:33 AM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I suspect the OP is a bit tongue in cheek, but the best online source for you might be Bibleinterp.com, in particular the essays here, especially Redating the Dead Sea Scroll Deposits at Qumran: the Legacy of an error in Archaeological Interpretation.

01-26-2006, 03:24 PM	#8
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	The Dead Sea Scrolls do not prove any religion right whatsoever. The only light it offers is an elucidation in the minds of Jews at the turn of the first millennium.

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