Damian

I ran across her website (www.truthbeknown.com) and it was, at turns, amusing and interesting. I decided to buy her book as a start (why I bought her book first is beyond me...it was sorta spontaneous). The only other book even remotely related to this subject matter that I've read is "Don't Know Much About the Bible," which I somewhat enjoyed.

I am curious as to what anyone else thinks about "The Christ Conspiracy." I like it enough, but the writing seems bitter and a bit simplistic in its conclusions.

I've also been reading the New Testament translation by Richmond Lattimore concurrently to make sure I keep a balanced frame of mind.

While I've been atheist for some time now, I'm finally at the point where I'm tired of having to explain myself to people. The topic just recently came up between my current girlfriend and her sister. According to my girlfriend, her sister didn't take it so well and is convinced I'm either just being trendy or avoiding accountability (which seems to be a typical reaction). Not that I don't understand where that reaction comes from, as I've encountered my fair share of trendy vegetarian/atheist but spiritual/indigo girls fans.

I can explain my reasons well enough to anyone that asks, but I still don't have really good answers for all of the regurgitated apologetic misinformation that people spew back at me. I think I was on the right track with "Don't Know Much About the Bible," but "The Christ Conspiracy" is a little off. It seems to start with many assumptions, and instead is concentrating on proving the "real" beginning of Christianity.

So, I went and ordered "The Bible Unearthed" and "Who Wrote the Bible?" Is this a good starting point?

Thanks!

Damian

Doh, I guess reading the sticky helps a little bit.

cloudyphiz

The last two books you mentioned are a much better place to start, absolutely. Especially (IMO) 'Who Wrote the Bible?'.

-Gary

capnkirk

I would recommend The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity by Hyam Maccoby (available at Barnes & Noble http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...rid=3863AUTQ51) not because it represents the most scholarly rigorous treatise, but because: It DOES focus specifically on the birth of Xtianity. It does so primarily by reading the Bible (particularly the NT) against itself, thus is easy to present to Xtian apologists. AND, It gets the essential requirements (If God doesn't exist, then he couldn't have had a son. But Xtianity exists, so someone must have invented it.) clearly in perspective (Not that Hyam is an atheist; He's not, he's a Talmudic scholar looking at the beginnings of Xtianity from a non-Xtian's viewpoint). While Hyam's take may not be completely satisfying to a lot of the very sophisticated students of the subject who regularly post on IIDB, neither would their very scholarly and extended perspective be understandable to the people you want to be able to respond to.

In a nutshell, Hyam contends that there was a historical Jesus (HJ), but he was a conventional Jewish messiah (not the Xtian son of God) and was crucified for political (rather than for religious) crimes. He then proceeds to demonstrate that Paul was a Gentile from pagan Tarsus, who worked for the Roman quisling High Priest to persecute potential political threats to Rome, and later had an epiphany wherein he 'recognized' Jesus as an incarnation of one of the pagan gods of the martyred/resurrected deity mystery religions of his native Tarsus (and prevalent throughout the Hellenized world). That this event marked the invention of Xtianity. Hyam then traces the aftermath through the confrontation with and split from The Jerusalem Church.

For the purpose you describe, no they aren't. Especially the latter which deals exclusively with the OT. Now don't get me wrong. I have read both books and regard them both highly. They just don't focus on what you are searching for right now.

Damian

Thanks for the info. Does the fact the the author believes in a historical Jesus detract in any way from the integrity of the rest of the book for someone that, say, doesn't believe in a historical Jesus? Or do his findings still hold weight without the presupposition of a historical Jesus?

capnkirk

I took your request to be for a "tool" to use specifically to refute Xtian apologists, and offered Mythmaker because it essentially hoists Xtians on their own petards.

I have come to believe that the real story is more complex than Hyam makes it. There are those like Doherty who offer a pretty convincing viewpoint that holds that there was no Jesus at all, no crucifixion, and that the gospels were written far later than is generally thought, but there are still lots of unanswered questions there too.

If you would like a no-risk peek at Hyam and Mythmaker, just search the web using these two keys and you will find sites that offer extended excerpts from the book. Then, judge for yourself.

Damian

Thanks!

Toto

Acharya S is a bit of a fringe scholar. The Christians who come here to debate like to use her to damage the case for Jesus Mythicism. You can't cite her as an authority, since she is not careful with her sources.

You don't say specifically what arguments you are trying to rebut, but the best source might be Mack's Who Wrote the New Testament: the Making of the Christian Myth.

The II Library is also a good source for counter-apologetics.

The Jury is In is a point by point rebuttal of Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict," which is the source of a lot of recycled apologetic argument.

Damian

Yes, I guess I wasn't extremely clear as to what specific arguments I was looking for. I guess that's because eventually I want to know all of it

I think it was quite obvious to even me that Acharya's book appears to be a bit loose with her sources. I'm only about 100 pages in, and I'm already hungering for something a bit more solid. While it's an intriguing idea, I would rather not try to argue against the historocity of Jesus by having to instead argue for Mysticism.

The suggestions I've gotten so far in this thread seem to be on point to what I'm looking for.

capnkirk

Here is a link that includes extensive excerpts from MYTHMAKER: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby2.htm.

Good luck!