Duvduv

You are telling an untruth and you know it. You have it in for me and we know why. But that's fine. Now let's go on. OK? I do not want to get into bickering.

Now please get back to describing how the gospel of Mark represents a prophecy the birth of Mohammed whose name adds up to 98 in Hebrew, the year you would say that GMark was written......

aa5874

I am not arguing at all that all the information in gLuke is from Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.

We CAN easily deduce that the authors of the NT were aware of Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.

It is just highly illogical to admit the authors were aware of Wars of the Jews but NOT Antiquities of the Jews and the Life of Flavius Josephus.

1. The Taxing of Cyrenius is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews.

2. John the Baptist is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews.

3. The execution of John the Baptist is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews.

4. The claim that Herod married his brother's wife is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews.

5. The REQUEST of a HEAD on a PLATTER is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews.

6. The Death of Herod when he was called a God is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews.

7. The story of the Egyptian and followers who was on Mount Olives attempting to break into the Temple is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews.

8. The trial of the brother of Jesus before the Sanhedrin is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews.

9. A character called James the brother of Jesus is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews.

10. The claim that Caius called himself the BROTHER of the God Jupiter is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews.

11. The story that Josephus was SHIPWRECKED on his way to Rome is found ONLY in the Life of Flavius Josephus.

12. The Crucifixion of Three and ONE Survived is FOUND ONLY in the Life of Flavius Josephus.

13. The claim that Josephus ASKED that the crucified be taken down is FOUND ONLY in Life of Flavius Josephus.

14. The claim that Jesus was the leader of Poor people and Mariners is found ONLY in Life of Flavius Josephus.

aa5874

That is like tellling a rocket scientist that there is not enough information available to us to build rockets.

Rocket scientists can easily make rockets regardless of what you think is available to us.

There is a MASSIVE abundance of information about the Jesus story and probably FAR MORE than any other character in any century in the history of mankind.

There are books upon books upon books about the stories of Jesus--probably in the thousands.

The abundance evidence was handed to us in Platter.

The Church PRESERVED the evidence and it is in PRISTINE Condition.

We have ENOUGH DOCUMENTED Forgeries and manipulated evidence.

Marcion was dead LONG BEFORE the Pauline writers were FABRICATED.

We have the Ignatian Letters, the Anonymous letter atrributed to Clement, 2nd Peter, the writings attributed to Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Eusebius, Julian the Emperor, Aristides, Justin Martyr, Ephrem the Syrian, Minucius Felix, Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras of Athens, the DATED NT manuscripts, the DEAD SEA SCROLLS, Philo, Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the younger, Arnobius, the NT Canon, Jerome, Chrysostom and many more.

Those writings have been available to us for Hundreds of years.

The matter has been resolved.

The PAULINE Letters were planted in the hands of Marcion after he was long dead.

meshak

I believe you are right because John said there are tons and tons of things Jesus did and said that there is not going to be enough books to be told.

Strange thing is that why so many Paul's epistles got to be cannon and not much of Jesus' word.

Just my two cents.

thank you

Bernard Muller

to aa,

Not so if gLuke and Acts were written before 'Antiquities' was published.
And then there is evidence "Luke" knew 'Wars', not because 'Wars' has info correctly utilized by "Luke", but reading (or browsing on) 'Wars' would explain why "Luke" made some mistakes. These mistakes would have been avoided if "Luke" knew about 'Antiquities'.

It is also found in 'Wars'.

If John the Baptist existed and was executed, then that would be known by his later followers well before 'Antiquities' was published.

But you answered yourself: "I am not arguing at all that all the information in gLuke is from Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius." So if you understand that, then you should accept that "Luke" could get his/her info somewhere else, even if the same info appear later in Josephus, Tacitus or Suetonius.
But in this case, "Luke" got the info from gMark, which got it from likely John the Baptist's latter followers (note: because the internal evidence in gMark points to a completion of the gospel soon after 70, I can certainly postulate that). As far as followers are concerned, "Luke" indicated JB was thought by some to be the Christ and "John" attacked and demeaned John the Baptist in two passages of gJohn. Also in 'Acts', JB is said to have followers in Ephesus.

Not found in Josephus' works. "Luke" got that from gMark, which got it as stated above for 4.

Once again, that would not prevent "Luke" to use other earlier sources, more so if 'Acts' was written in the first century. Furthermore, there are big differences between the two accounts, which would show "Luke" did not know about 'Antiquities'. For example, the audience in 'Acts' are people from Tyre and Sidon. That is not in 'Antiquities', which otherwise gives a lot more details about Agrippa's death. Furthermore, "Luke" called Agrippa 'Herod'.

Actually, in 'Acts', the Egyptian is mentioned briefly, but not on Mount of Olives and not attempting to break into the temple. His story is also in 'Wars'. The numbers of followers are also different: 4000 in 'Acts', 30,000 in 'Antiquities', a minimum of 600 in 'Wars'. Here it seems "Luke" totally missed the passage in 'Wars' and had another source.

This trial is not in any gospels or 'Acts'.

It is found also in 'Galatians' (Lord= Jesus according to what precedes) and also in the earliest gospel, gMark.

So, what's the point?

Shipwrecks were very common in these days.

I answered that earlier "there are similarities but differences also. You make it sound one story is a carbon copy of the other. For example, in one story, the three died on their cross but one will resurrect. In the other story, the three are extracted from their cross still alive, but two will die later."

There are huge differences between these two Jesuses. That also show 'Jesus' was a very common name then.

Your methodology seems to be: if a story in the gospels or 'Acts has some similarities (albeit huge differences) with a story which appears in Josephus, or Tacitus, or Suetonius' works, then it had to be the inspiration of the gospelers, therefore the gospels & 'Act" had to be written later.
I do not agree with this very simplistic idea. Furthermore, I challenge you to prove, for your 14 points (substract points 1., 5., 7. & 8.) that the gospelers copied stuff from Josephus' Antiquities & Life and Tacitus & Suetonius.

One more point: you make a lot about 2nd century authors did not tell about the Pauline epistles even if they knew of Paul.
Josephus, in 'Antiquities' (XVIII, VIII, 1) had a brief description of Philo of Alexandria, but did not say that Philo wrote books. How do you explain that?

Cordially, Bernard

stephan huller

.

the problem here is (a) the complete lack of reference to John in Jewish and Samaritan sources and (b) the Marcionite gospel erased the early narrative mention of John. There is a sudden introduction of "John" which makes the additional information in the Catholic gospels seem to derive fron Josephus. Its the most logical assumption

jakejonesiv

Why are you concerned about aa5874? If he is a special needs person, then of course, I will lay off.
Actually, that explains alot.

Jake

jakejonesiv

Paul=Marcion is not my theory.

jakejonesiv

Stephan,

Thanks for the heads up. It can now save the time of responding to duvduv.

Jake

aa5874

The author of gMark also used Antiquities of the Jews and the Life of Flavius Josephus composed c 93 CE and c 100 CE and the writings of Tacitus and Suetonius composed c 115 CE.

Once you admit that the author of gLuke used gMark then gLuke was composed after c 115 CE.