Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 02-13-2007, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

from what exactly is Jesus supposed to "save" us?

....sin, death, hell, non-asceticism, take your pick. It depends on your perspective of Christianity and interpretation of the Bible.

Evangelicals would argue that Jesus saves you from hell. Liberal Christians would argue he saves you from death. Mystics would argue he saves you from a shallow life of selfishness. Pragmatists would argue he saves you from paying the full burden of taxes on donations to churches. Atheists would argue he saves you from the burden of critical thought and the burden of social ostracism.

Godless Dave · 02-14-2007, 01:18 AM

One possible interpretation is he saves us from death. Even if Adam and Eve weren't literally cursed with death for eating from the tree, humans still die. Jesus (so the story goes) gives us eternal life, albeit not on earth and not in our physical bodies.

driver8 · 02-14-2007, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

This reminded me of something I have been wondering about from some time: from what exactly is Jesus supposed to "save" us?

Gerard Stafleu

Good question. Its good to step back every once in awhile from textual criticism and look at the big picture. If you were asked to summarize the bible in one page you'd get a very confusing story with major plot conflicts.

Why indeed would we need "saving?" Why are we inherently defective? Are we due for a recall? Why is god lonely, etc., etc.?

To me the answer is that man's concept of god was changing to allow for the possibility of the immortal soul, and in order to entice converts to the "new" religion, the concept of the immortal soul was being pushed. The most effective way to do so was to claim that god had sent a mortal messenger who was a required intermediary in achieving this form of immortality. Even if the message was false, it was very effective in gaining converts, as it remains today. What do you have to lose by believing?

gstafleu · 02-14-2007, 09:26 AM

Going by the answers so far, the Fall of Man has little to do with whatever it is that Jesus saves us from. It sounds as if he saves us from any unpleasantries from which we'd like to be saved. Now there's a handy marketing tool! Perhaps that explains why Christianity became so popular: it was an all-round tool for wellbeing. Just believe and you are saved from whatever you please. What other religion can offer that? And then they say modern pop culture is shallow!

Gerard Stafleu

Gawen · 02-14-2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Going by the answers so far, the Fall of Man has little to do with whatever it is that Jesus saves us from. It sounds as if he saves us from any unpleasantries from which we'd like to be saved. Now there's a handy marketing tool! Perhaps that explains why Christianity became so popular: it was an all-round tool for wellbeing. Just believe and you are saved from whatever you please. What other religion can offer that? And then they say modern pop culture is shallow!

Gerard Stafleu

I think, taking a cynical route, Jesus saves us from......

Christians.

What with all Christian history tells us from the dark ages to just recently.

Boro Nut · 02-14-2007, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller

How many more double posts can I have?

Two, obviously.

Boro Nut

Gamera · 02-14-2007, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

In another thread somebody mentioned Dale Allison, who is a Christian believer and nonetheless holds that "We have become very sophisticated in our understanding of Genesis as mythology." This reminded me of something I have been wondering about from some time: from what exactly is Jesus supposed to "save" us?

I always thought that it was from the consequences of the Fall of Man (that whole snake and apple business) in Genesis 3. But if that is mythology, then what is there left to be saved from? In other words, if we don't take the Fall of Man literally, why do we need the passion?

I suppose you could see Gen 3 as a metaphor for something, but if so: for what? And if Gen 3 is a metaphor, then why would the passion not be a metaphor as well?

I did a quick search for "save" in the NT, but that didn't really help. A few mentions of "save from our sins" and "save the world," but otherwise it is not all that clear what Jesus is saving us from. Maybe the save-idea is a later (post NT) development?

Gerard Stafleu

The prison of selfishness. The Christian scriptures don't mention "original sin" (nor does the OT), and one doesn't need to have that bizarre theological concept to be a Christian, as Kierkagaard and others have shown.

The structure of the gospel is that its acceptance liberates one from selfishness and transforms you into a loving person. That's what is implied by all the epistle authors. The premise is were are intended to be loving persons, by become trapped in self-involvement, and hence are alienated from ourselves and from God. Jesus' role in the gospel narrative saves us from that alienation.

This is what existential christianity -- such as Bultman and the "Emerging Church" movement -- would argue. And so would I.

Gamera · 02-14-2007, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

One possible interpretation is he saves us from death. Even if Adam and Eve weren't literally cursed with death for eating from the tree, humans still die. Jesus (so the story goes) gives us eternal life, albeit not on earth and not in our physical bodies.

But death here doesn't mean physical death. Jesus and the authors of the Christian scriptures assume spiritual existence is everlasting. Death (like "Life") to them isn't intended physically Thus, Jesus' perplexing claim that he is "the resurrection and the life." Life here means something other than continued existence since it appears the unsaved will also continue to live, but in a state of loveless alienation. The idea (of existential Christianity) is that the gospel is the narrative means by which we all choice to be who were are -- loving or nonloving persons. And those are the persons we will be forever.

Roller · 02-14-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boro Nut

Two, obviously.

Boro Nut

Well, I asked for it

(I had a triple on a different topic)

spamandham · 02-15-2007, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

The prison of selfishness.
...
This is what existential christianity -- such as Bultman and the "Emerging Church" movement -- would argue. And so would I.

I think this is what early Christianity was all about. It wasn't all this silly heaven/hell nonsense. I think it was mystical in nature and focused on exactly what you are saying here. I read the gospels as a new age (the new age of Pisces back then) mystical message that reinforces this view, while neatly tying in Judaism and Pythagoreanism.

I lean toward the idea that the gospels are a constructed message of this form, which makes me doubt Jesus was a real character.

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02-14-2007, 01:18 AM	#12
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	One possible interpretation is he saves us from death. Even if Adam and Eve weren't literally cursed with death for eating from the tree, humans still die. Jesus (so the story goes) gives us eternal life, albeit not on earth and not in our physical bodies.

02-14-2007, 09:26 AM	#14
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	Going by the answers so far, the Fall of Man has little to do with whatever it is that Jesus saves us from. It sounds as if he saves us from any unpleasantries from which we'd like to be saved. Now there's a handy marketing tool! Perhaps that explains why Christianity became so popular: it was an all-round tool for wellbeing. Just believe and you are saved from whatever you please. What other religion can offer that? And then they say modern pop culture is shallow! Gerard Stafleu

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