Vorkosigan

Thanks, Andrew. Why do you think Hippolytus' presentation is different, then?

Vorkosigan

andrewcriddle

Miroslav Marcovich in Studies in Graeco-Roman Religions and Gnosticism suggests four factors. They amount to errors in our text of Josephus, Hippolytus using Josephus via an expanded and Christianized source, probably Hegesippus, and Hippolytus embelleshing this source.

Andrew Criddle

aa5874

But, upon READING the writings of Philo it is quickly realized that there were NOT Christianised at all.

The manipulation of the History of the Jesus cult was done in at least two ways.

1. By propaganda.

2. The actual manipulation of text.

The claims by Eusebius that Philo wrote about Mark while he preached Christ and established churches in Alexandria is a very good example of manipulation by propaganda. See Church History 2.16

When one examines the writings of Philo there is not a mention of a character called Mark who preached Christ in Alexandria.

The writer under the name of Origen also appears to have employed propaganda when he claimed that Josephus should NOT have stated that the Jewish Temple fell because of James the Just. See Commentary on Matthew X and "Against Celsus"

But upon reading Josephus, no such statement is found.

By the way, the NT Canon does NOT mention the Essenes and non-apologetic sources do NOT even claim the Essenes worshiped or believed in a character called Jesus.

DCHindley

Andrew,

Maybe I am wrong, but it seemed to me that after just explaining that the Essenes believed that after death, their souls continue to live, rising upwards (presumably to the heavens), Josephus was comparing this to the Greek idea (very specific to the Elysian mysteries, BTW, although other mysteries may also have shared this concept) that after the death of the body, the souls of the good continue to live, and then goes on in one of his tangents to describe that Elysian tradition: Good souls live on to go to the Isles of the Blessed, while the souls of the worthless live on to go to a dark dungeon of endless torments, thus serving as an inducement for the initiated to do good in life.

What is actually common to these two accounts (Essenes vs Greeks) is that the soul is immortal. I don't see that Josephus is necessarily asserting that the Essenes shared the Greek mystery view as to how the souls lived on after death. Now Josephus may well have agreed with the initiates into the Elysian mysteries that there are rewards and punishments awaiting the good and evil sould after the death of the bodies, which might explain why he chose Greek mystery tradition for a comparison, but this does not prove in any way that this is what he thinks Essenes believed the soul experiences after the death of the body.

Hippolytus adds that the Essenes believed that "the soul, when separated in the present life, (departs) into one place, which is well ventilated and lightsome, where, they say, it rests until judgment." Even if Hippolytus is here drawing from some now-lost passage from Josephus, this place could very well be in the heavens as it is in the Aramaic Enochian books found near Qumran.

The norm among Jews found in the Jewish scriptures was that the soul "sleeps" in the grave (Sheol) after death. Even those who expected a general resurrection to enjoy the promised land, usually assumed that the souls slept only to be reconstituted along with their bodies at the time of the general resurrection, and only then enjoy the promise land.

My understanding is also that Greeks generally did not expect a life after death, again "sleeping" in Hades (an underground chamber, essentially the grave), except as developed among the various mysteries. Plato and the philosophers did think the soul lived on, being part of the world soul, to be recycled through metempsychosis to higher or lower forms of intermediary souls/heroes/daimones/demigods, but it did not live on with memories of its previous incarnations.

155b And this is like the opinion of the Greeks, that good souls [after death] have their habitations beyond the ocean, in a region that is neither oppressed with storms of rain, or snow, or with intense heat, but that this place is such as is refreshed by the gentle breezes of a west wind, that is perpetually blowing from the ocean;

155 καὶ (and) ταῖς (the) μὲν (on the one hand) ἀγαθαῖς (good) ὁμοδοξοῦντες (of the same opinion being [about the immortality of the soul]) παισὶν (they sport like boys, from παιζω) Ἑλλήνων (Greeks) ἀποφαίνονται (declare) τὴν (the) ὑπὲρ (over) ὠκεανὸν (Ocean) δίαιταν (way of life) ἀποκεῖσθαι (one is destined to) καὶ (and) χῶρον ([strong] NW wind) οὔτε (nor) ὄμβροις (rain showers) οὔτε (nor) νιφετοῖς (falling snow) οὔτε (nor) καύμασι (burning heat) βαρυνόμενον (they are burdened) ἀλλ᾽ (but) ὃν (these) ἐξ (out of) ὠκεανοῦ (Ocean) πραῢς (light) ἀεὶ (unceasingly) ζέφυρος (Zephyr wind) ἐπιπνέων (breathes) ἀναψύχει (it refreshes [them])

while they allot to bad souls a dark and tempestuous den, full of never ceasing punishments.

ταῖς (the) δὲ (on the other hand) φαύλαις (worthless) ζοφώδη (dark) καὶ (and) χειμέριον (wintry storm) ἀφορίζονται (they are set apart) μυχὸν (innermost place) γέμοντα (full) τιμωριῶν (of punishments) ἀδιαλείπτων (unceasing)

DCH

Duvduv

There are additional questions in Josephus on his own merits aside from interpolations. His reference to a king he calls Agrippa II who carried the same name as his father, which is not attested to in the Talmud or other Jewish sources. Of course there is the question of the mention of the Baptist, whose very existence is still questionable. Then there is the whole matter of the mass suicide at Masada for which there is very little empirical evidence at the site, despite its becoming part of the "canon". Finally, there is the matter of Miriam the Hasmonean supposedly living in marriage with Herod which is also not supported by Jewish sources (the girl is said to have committed suicide rather than live with him).

maryhelena

Interesting - do you have a source and quote for me?

Duvduv

Very little is discussed in the Talmud about Herod altogether. But for Miriam (and Herod), the references are:
Tractate Bava Batra page 3b to 4a
Tractate Sanhedrin 66b
Herod is discussed in Tractate Megilla 6a.

The idea proposed in Josephus that Hyrcanus as a member of the priestly kohanim class would accede to his own granddaughter marrying an Idumean classified as a slave convert is not credible from a rabbinic point of view. If Miriam was forceably taken to marry him then it makes perfect sense that she would commit suicide rather than live with him.

maryhelena

Thanks for the references. Most probably Mariamne was taken by Herod the Great as some sort of trophy from the war. Her name is not mentioned in the source re a maiden falling from a roof to the ground. Suicide rather than marry Herod the Great? Interpretations a plenty here no doubt....

I'm open to questioning Josephus on everything - but methinks, this falling from the roof to the ground re the unnamed maiden (if Mariamne) is hardly enough to question the Josephan story re the marriage between Mariamne and Herod the Great. Maybe Herod the Great, after marrying her - drove her crazy - and then she jumped from the roof to the ground...

And of course, from a Jewish perspective - a fused Hasmonean/Herodian bloodline was not kosher - and if that is all Herod married her for - that's enough to make any woman crazy......
:constern01:

Duvduv

She committed suicide because she was coerced and did not want to be defiled as a "bat kohen" (daughter of a kohen). In any case, we might also want to know why Josephus invented his Masada myth story which of course is an icon for the Israeli survivalist culture.