premjan

I think Buddha would say that if you have attained enlightenment you would see that life is just another conditioned phenomena. it has certain prerequisites and certain potencies. In other words, it is a phenomenon more than a force.

but ... suit yourself.

Asha'man

Moses and Jesus are characters in a fictional story, and simply don’t need explaining.

Muhammad seems more likely to have been real, but there are crackpots all over the world today, and none of them really need explaining. Do you have an explanation for David Koresh or Jim Jones?

Actually, none of them say anything whatsoever, not any more. All we have are books that make claims about what they said, and those books are proven to be unreliable.

I’m quite sure there are forces that we don’t currently understand. But magical thinking can only prevent further understanding, not help it along.

Son of Odin

I recognise a lot of it in the "teachings" of a flemish Heathen/asatru organisation which holds pretty much the same beliefs. The force of creation and destruction would be symbolised by the death and rebirth of Balder, or the creation of the world by Odin and the destruction of the world by the Giants. All of these being aspects of the divine, an impersonal soemthing/nothing similar to Brahman (I think it was called) in Hinduism.

Space Chef

How do you explain Buddha, Krishna, Lao Tzu, Zarathustra, the 24 Jinas? That they were liars, delusional, misguided? That they followed jinns? That Iblis was tricking them? How the hell would you know? Why is your pathetic excuse of a god willing to forgive Iblis but not the millions of others that are in Jahannam? Are 'fags' worse than Iblis and his jinns? Why can't your 'god' make up his mind? Why can't he keep an opinion for more than a few fucking seconds? Does he have ADD? Certainly not ADHD, he's not active enough. Maybe he's retarded?

Fuck Islam, fuck Christianity, fuck Judaism.

And mods, I didn't insult anyone in this post anymore than Magus does, than mrmoderate has in this thread, than Hassan has.

capsaicin67

Borrowing a tad from GermanHeretic,
possibilities:
* they wanted political power/social status/attention
*they wanted political/social/cultural/religious change
* they wanted money
* they wanted women[or men? or both?]
* they didn't exist and some people, who wanted politcal power, money, or men, or women, made them up
* they suffered from some mental illness and heard voices, they had personality disorders and had inflated senses of their self-importance and grandeur. megalomaniacs.
*revenge/compensation for humble beginnings
*dumb luck/right place at right time
*the same way I explain Sai Baba, the Pope, and the historical ones mentioned.

They might well have believed at least some of their own shit---if they existed in fact. Ideas that are "revealed" can mean many things, IMO. Hallucination. Inspired thought or Eureka-breakthrough moment. Lies/manipulation. Artistic/dramatic license with their own ideas/agendas. Political/sales spin.

Was any of it truly magical or supernatural? There is no reason to think so since we have no reason to think that magic exists, but many reasons to know that liars, manipulators, and the mistaken exist. We've all seen charismatic leaders, I have no reason to think those were not also men that took shits and farted and got hungry etc.

There may well be many things beyond our understanding at any given time, but I like to think that none are decisively, eternally beyond the possibility of being understood. I think it improbable that humanity will ever understand *everything*, however.

Do I think there is a supernaturaly Force that oversees all with intelligence, let alone partiality for homo sapiens? Naaaah. No reason to think that. To quote Gould, "Nature is amoral and persistent." And I would add, indifferent.

muslim8881

Thank you everyone for your input, which I greatly appreciate.

I find myself agreeing pretty much with tangiellis and premjan that these men did indeed have sincere mystical experiences or visions that inspired them to such an extent that they were able to motivate and inspire others and that "the teachings they preached and wrote of have led to both good and bad in their followers".

If I may ask another question, particularly to the two I mention (or anyothers) what would you call yourselves? Do you feel a need to identify yourself as part of any group in your daily life? If you are from a Christian background/culture - do you regard/identify yourselves with Christians?

Can a Christian/Jew/Muslim who believes in God, prays etc... but doesn't take things literally, but pretty much as you describe - still call himself a Christian/Jew/Muslim?

Thanks,

Hassan

Ego

Jesus was delusional in my humble opinon. Isn't it odd how Jesus' town (and I think even his parents!) didn't believe that he was the messiah and the saviour? I reckon they all thought that Jesus was a little soft in the head. Also he had a rather inflated opinion of himself in my opinion.

Moses, probably a liar, or delusional, however I'd be also willing to view that the events, or the story got changed through time and it resulted in this rather inflated person.
(The Egyptians failed to write down anything about the plagues, seas parting or slaves running off to while being pursued by the army...)

Mohammad. I don't know enough to say anything about the guy. I'll have to look up the Koran.

Imagine it or they were delusional. No I don't think there was a mystical experience. Does it have any validity at all? No more than Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone.

Any benifts are heavily outweighed by the problems religions the world over have caused. The Dark Age, Holy Wars, Prevention of scientific progress, Creationism, fundamentalism...if anything its provided a justification for the many crimes throughout history and its acted as an "opium of the people" (By that I mean that it numbs the pain of the poor peoples hopelessness by giving them a false hope.

I don't think that there is any force that is beyond our understanding. If proof could be provided for such a force I would be willing to entertain the possibility of it, but I sincerly doubt that it or anything else is beyond understanding (except perhaps human nature... )

I call myself an Atheist, like all humans I feel the need for a group, so I identify with my age group and friends, with Britian and family.

I am an ex-catholic and being british I come from an Anglican culture, howwever that said for the most part a good majority of brits don't care much for religion. I don't mind christians or anything like that, but I don't go out of my way to id myself with them. (Except for the fact that I do celebrate christmas and easter and hallowen simply for the hell of it and the unadulterated comercialisation of it! )

Yeah, the bible is open to interpretation. Some people recognise flaws and abusrdities within it but also the good stuff in it and then take the best apples from it and throw out the rest onto the compost heap. They call themselves christians they may not be literalists (which is a good thing) but if they call themselves christians, then dammit! they're christians.

Finally Welcome to the Forums! May the great invisible pink unicorn watch over you with her horn of holiness.

Oxymoron

For at least some biblical characters: a form of schizophrenia. I mean burning bushes that don't burn? Voices in their heads? Mental illness: not unsurprising, much more common than you'd reckon. Totally misunderstood 2000 years ago+ in the ME, easily misinterepreted as ascetics.

For the rest: completely or semi-fictional characters whose exploits are written about after the fact as mythology for some agenda - hidden or otherwise.

xxthe_leewitxx

I don't think you'll find many atheists who would want to define themselves as Christian because of their upbringing, but being Jewish, at least, is also a cultural identifier, so I imagine that a formerly Jewish atheist might still identify as Jewish.

I think there's lots of people who call themselves Christian that believe in God, and pray, but don't take the Bible literally at all. They're called liberal Christians, and there are quite a few here. Same would probably go for the Jews. I don't know enough about Islam to tell you if you could doubt the literal veracity of the Koran and still be considered a Muslim by anyone but yourself.

In the end, though, you have to figure out for yourself who and what you are.

0

I dislike labels because they cause others to judge a person without even knowing what they fully represent. If I am ever asked what religion I am and the person won't take that for an answer, I simply say Pagan.
I was raised Seventh Day Adventist, but I've been out of that loop for a long time. I stumbled onto Wicca first, then began delving into various aspects of Paganism. Now I'm branching into areas of Eastern philosophy that I studied years ago and am seeking a refresher on.

That's the thing about labels. They are true for whoever uses them simply because they alter what those labels are defined as.
Personally, I believe all religion is just windowdressing for the same thing: mankind's attempt to reach out to the beyond that defies words, concrete facts, and yes, religion.

Tangie