Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JoeWallack · 07-21-2012, 09:27 PM

JW:
I think everyone would agree here that David from the Jewish Bible is a source for "Mark's" Jesus' Passion. The better question though, and one which C-BS tries to avoid, is to what extent David from the Jewish Bible was a source for "Mark's" Jesus' Passion.

Several threads here recently have illustrated the C-BS position that the supposed lack of Messianic Passion in the Jewish Bible is proof/key evidence of HPJ (historically passionate Jesus). The serious student should know by now though that this is a Literary Criticism and that without any quality Source Criticism to support it, can not prove anything. Measuring the extent to which "Mark's" Jesus' Passion has a source of the Jewish Bible is also a Literary Criticism and thus has the potential to swing this category of evidence to MJ, depending on the extent.

I foresee confusion here as to the combination of my claim that this thread is not about Source Criticism and my continued use of the word "source" referring here to the Jewish Bible. "Source Criticism" refers to the author, "Mark", of which we know little.

Interestingly/ironically Jesus' Teaching & Healing Ministry, which was impossible, was presented by "Mark" as relatively unimportant while the Passion Ministry was presented as the important part, which was possible (but implausible). The extent of contrivance is another type of Literary Criticism but this thread will be dedicated to the source issue above.

I have faith that believers here as well as Skeptics will be surprised at the extent to which "Mark's" Passion has a source of the Jewish Bible. I've already indicated that "Mark's" source for Jesus' baptism was David receiving the spirit and than being driven to fight Goliath verses tested by Satan. For starters though this thread will only look at the Psalms as source for the Passion.

Joseph

JoeWallack · 07-22-2012, 10:50 AM

JW:
Stephen Ahearne-Kroll has written the related book:

The Psalms of Lament in Mark's Passion: Jesus' Davidic Suffering (Society for New Testament Studies Monograph Series)

Amazon link (or via: amazon.co.uk)

which can be purchased for your PC for $ 13 (cheap).

The strength of the book is the objective determination of parallels between "Mark's" Jesus' Passion and the Psalms. The weakness is that the book carries all the (mis)assumptions of C-BS concerning the significance of the parallels.

For starters Kroll assumes the Passion is 14.1 to 16:8. As a side note, regarding 16:8 as the original ending, note that it supports the Tragedy of the entire Passion, while the Forged Ending completely undoes the Tragedy.

From the start of "Mark's" Passion Kroll notes the first quality parallel to a Psalm in 14:10-21:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_14

Quote:

14:10 And Judas Iscariot, he that was one of the twelve, went away unto the chief priests, that he might deliver him unto them.

11 And they, when they heard it, were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently deliver him [unto them].

12 And on the first day of unleavened bread, when they sacrificed the passover, his disciples say unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and make ready that thou mayest eat the passover?

13 And he sendeth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him;

14 and wheresoever he shall enter in, say to the master of the house, The Teacher saith, Where is my guest-chamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

15 And he will himself show you a large upper room furnished [and] ready: and there make ready for us.

16 And the disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

17 And when it was evening he cometh with the twelve.

18 And as they sat and were eating, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you shall betray me, [even] he that eateth with me.

19 They began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I?

20 And he said unto them, [It is] one of the twelve, he that dippeth with me in the dish.

21 For the Son of man goeth, even as it is written of him: but woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had not been born.

Kroll's Kriteria emphasize theme. He identifies the following major themes above:

1) Meal with associates.

2) Handing over by a close associate.

3) Deliverance to enemies

He notes that all three figure prominently in Psalm 41:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Psalms_41

Quote:

41:1 Blessed is he that considereth the poor: Jehovah will deliver him in the day of evil.

2 Jehovah will preserve him, and keep him alive, And he shall be blessed upon the earth; And deliver not thou him unto the will of his enemies.

3 Jehovah will support him upon the couch of languishing: Thou makest all his bed in his sickness.

4 I said, O Jehovah, have mercy upon me: Heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.

5 Mine enemies speak evil against me, [saying], When will he die, and his name perish?

6 And if he come to see [me], he speaketh falsehood; His heart gathereth iniquity to itself: When he goeth abroad, he telleth it.

7 All that hate me whisper together against me; Against me do they devise my hurt.

8 An evil disease, [say they], cleaveth fast unto him; And now that he lieth he shall rise up no more.

9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, Who did eat of my bread, Hath lifted up his heel against me.

10 But thou, O Jehovah, have mercy upon me, and raise me up, That I may requite them.

11 By this I know that thou delightest in me, Because mine enemy doth not triumph over me.

12 And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, And settest me before thy face for ever.

13 Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, From everlasting and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen. Book II Psalm 42 For the Chief Musician. Maschil of the sons of Korah.

Kroll's book lacks a quantitative analysis of the % of parallels to potential parallels but the matching of themes above seems solid as it would be somewhat difficult to find a significant theme in 14:10-21 not found in Psalm 41. Note especially how important the 3 are to the plot of that area of "Mark".

Also note that 14:1-9 has parallels to the Psalm with the enemies plotting and invocation of "sickness" and "poor". Kroll Karries the C-BS assumption that "Mark's" entire Passion is based on prior stories but fails to notice that there are no such extant stories. He also fails to point out that what is extant support for a source is Paul:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php...Corinthians_11

Quote:

11:23 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread;

24 and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me.

All three parallels above are explicit or implied. As Kroll notes, "Mark" is kind enough to finish the offending section with:

For the Son of man goeth, even as it is written of him

Explicitly iding the source as Scripture. Thus all known evidence supports Paul as providing the key assertions here and "Mark" using those assertions for his theme and than using the Jewish Bible to create a related narrative for at least part of his Passion narrative. The remaining question is, to what extent?

Joseph

aa5874 · 07-22-2012, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

...... Thus all known evidence supports Paul as providing the key assertions here and "Mark" using those assertions for his theme and than using the Jewish Bible to create a related narrative for at least part of his Passion narrative. The remaining question is, to what extent?

Joseph

Your claim is completely WRONG.

The author of the short gMark did NOT use any assertions of the Pauline writings.

1. The term "Son of man" in gMark is NOT from the Pauline writings.

2. The term "Jesus of Nazareth" in gMark is NOT from the Pauline writings.

3. The miracles of Jesus in gMark is NOT found in the Pauline writings.

4. The claim in gMark that Jesus did NOT want the Jews to be converted is NOT in the Pauline writings.

5. The claim in gMark that Jesus Deliberately spoke in Parables so that the Outsiders would NOT understand him is NOT found in the Pauline writings.

6. The claim in gMark that Jesus did NOT want anyone to know he was the Christ is NOT in the Pauline writings.

7. The events at the arrest of Jesus in gMark is NOT in the Pauline writings.

8. The events at the trial by the Sanhedrin in gMark is NOT from the Pauline writings.

9. The events at the trial under Pilate in gMark is NOT from the Pauline writings.

10. The events at the PASSION in gMark is NOWHERE at all in the Pauline writings.

11. Passages from PSALMS 22 relating to the Passion in gMark are NOT even quoted in the Pauline writings.

12. The author of gMark did NOT claim that Jesus DIED and Resurrected for the Sins of all mankind as stated in the Pauline writings.

The short gMark did NOT use the Pauline letters at all for his Passion.

The author clearly used the Psalms and the "Autobiography of Josephus".

The Life of Flavius Josephus 75

Quote:

.....I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance.

I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered.

JoeWallack · 07-23-2012, 08:09 AM

JW:
As previously noted Psalm 41 has good parallels to Mark 14:1-25. Continuing with Mark 14, Kroll notes that the Gethsemane scene 32-42 has a reMarkable thematic parallel with Psalms 41 and 42 in that the base for both is a prayer to God for deliverance said 3 times. The reMarkable individual parallels are:

1) "Mark" here has implications that Jesus is a sinner, "take the Cup away", "not my will", "the flesh is weak" which matches the repentant sinner of 41/42. As otherwise showing Jesus Christ (not just "Jesus") as innocent of sin is such a major theme of "Mark" the inescapable conclusion is that showing his Jesus narrative as based on David was more important to him than any other theme.

2) The sorrowful/distressed theme = "My tears have been my food day and night", "pour out my soul within me."

3) The questioning of God, ending with trust in God = "I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? Why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?/Why art thou cast down, O my soul? And why art thou disquieted within me? Hope thou in God; for I shall yet praise him, [Who is] the help of my countenance, and my God."

Bonus material for Vorkosigan = Note that for Chapter 14, the parallels are there to David when "Mark's" current narrative is not a fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. The prophecy is from the Jewish Bible, thus the parallels. When the current narrative fulfills a prophecy of Jesus, there is no parallel to the Jewish Bible. Note that the first part of Chapter 14 not paralleled to David is 14:11-16 which contains a prophecy fulfillment of Jesus. The same is true of the rest of Chapter 14. Now for God's sake, will you please continue your Markan Commentary sight so you can inventory this brilliant observation.

Joseph

View Poll Results: To what extent has "Mark" used/misused David as a source for Jesus Passion
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Mostly	0	0%
Significantly	0	0%
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Hardly	0	0%
Zero	0	0%
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07-21-2012, 09:27 PM	#1
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	The Lord Sent to my lord jUPSalms. David as Model for "Mark's" Jesus' Passion JW: I think everyone would agree here that David from the Jewish Bible is a source for "Mark's" Jesus' Passion. The better question though, and one which C-BS tries to avoid, is to what extent David from the Jewish Bible was a source for "Mark's" Jesus' Passion. Several threads here recently have illustrated the C-BS position that the supposed lack of Messianic Passion in the Jewish Bible is proof/key evidence of HPJ (historically passionate Jesus). The serious student should know by now though that this is a Literary Criticism and that without any quality Source Criticism to support it, can not prove anything. Measuring the extent to which "Mark's" Jesus' Passion has a source of the Jewish Bible is also a Literary Criticism and thus has the potential to swing this category of evidence to MJ, depending on the extent. I foresee confusion here as to the combination of my claim that this thread is not about Source Criticism and my continued use of the word "source" referring here to the Jewish Bible. "Source Criticism" refers to the author, "Mark", of which we know little. Interestingly/ironically Jesus' Teaching & Healing Ministry, which was impossible, was presented by "Mark" as relatively unimportant while the Passion Ministry was presented as the important part, which was possible (but implausible). The extent of contrivance is another type of Literary Criticism but this thread will be dedicated to the source issue above. I have faith that believers here as well as Skeptics will be surprised at the extent to which "Mark's" Passion has a source of the Jewish Bible. I've already indicated that "Mark's" source for Jesus' baptism was David receiving the spirit and than being driven to fight Goliath verses tested by Satan. For starters though this thread will only look at the Psalms as source for the Passion. Joseph

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07-23-2012, 08:09 AM	#4
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	JW: As previously noted Psalm 41 has good parallels to Mark 14:1-25. Continuing with Mark 14, Kroll notes that the Gethsemane scene 32-42 has a reMarkable thematic parallel with Psalms 41 and 42 in that the base for both is a prayer to God for deliverance said 3 times. The reMarkable individual parallels are: 1) "Mark" here has implications that Jesus is a sinner, "take the Cup away", "not my will", "the flesh is weak" which matches the repentant sinner of 41/42. As otherwise showing Jesus Christ (not just "Jesus") as innocent of sin is such a major theme of "Mark" the inescapable conclusion is that showing his Jesus narrative as based on David was more important to him than any other theme. 2) The sorrowful/distressed theme = "My tears have been my food day and night", "pour out my soul within me." 3) The questioning of God, ending with trust in God = "I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? Why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?/Why art thou cast down, O my soul? And why art thou disquieted within me? Hope thou in God; for I shall yet praise him, [Who is] the help of my countenance, and my God." Bonus material for Vorkosigan = Note that for Chapter 14, the parallels are there to David when "Mark's" current narrative is not a fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. The prophecy is from the Jewish Bible, thus the parallels. When the current narrative fulfills a prophecy of Jesus, there is no parallel to the Jewish Bible. Note that the first part of Chapter 14 not paralleled to David is 14:11-16 which contains a prophecy fulfillment of Jesus. The same is true of the rest of Chapter 14. Now for God's sake, will you please continue your Markan Commentary sight so you can inventory this brilliant observation. Joseph

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