Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 01-07-2004, 10:54 AM

Sorry, just a strange question:

Do Paul's letters themselves provide an independent way of dating their production, I mean not considering the information in say Acts or any other.

Are there any references within his letters which provide a dating clue, say a historical figure already substantiated?

spin

Toto · 01-07-2004, 12:15 PM

It's not a strange question at all.

If you read up on the dating of Paul's letters, it seems that most Christians and even most skeptics use the information in Acts, and assume that the letters were written after the putative death of Jesus around 32 CE and before the legendary death of Paul in the 60's in Rome, speculated to be under Nero in 64.

E.g., Paul N Tobin, in The Rejection of Pascal's Wager, writes

Quote:

We can begin at setting the upper limit of their composition. There is a strong, and very likely authentic, tradition that Paul died in the Neronian persecution of Christians in AD64. It is therefore reasonably certain that the genuine epistles must all be written before, or at the latest in, AD 64. If we assume the general reliability of the chronology of the Acts of the Apostles, we can set the lower limit. Based on internal evidences, the earliest Pauline epistle is the first epistle to the Thessalonians.

We can connect some statements found in this epistle with some events depicted in Acts. In chapter seventeen of Acts we are told that Paul's visit to Thessalonika was not without trouble. Paul and his followers had fled from there to Berea, another town in the province of Macedonia (See the map below).

Again trouble brewed in Berea and Paul left for Athens, leaving his followers, Timothy and Silas behind. We find Paul recalling this incident in the epistle:

I Thessalonians 3:1-2
So when we could stand it no longer, we thought it best to be left by ourselves in Athens. We sent Timothy, who is our brother and God's fellow worker in spreading the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith.

After leaving Athens, Paul went to Corinth (Acts 18:1). It was here that Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia to join Paul:

Acts 18:5
When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching...

In the epistle, Silas and Timothy was already with Paul when he was writing it:

I Thessalonians 1:1
Paul, Silas and Timothy. To the Church of the Thessalonians who are in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace and peace to you.

According to Paul, Timothy had just joined him:

I Thessalonians 3:6
But Timothy has just now came from us to you.

We can therefore say with some certainty that this epistle was written while Paul was in Corinth. Around this time, according to Acts 18;12, Gallio was proconsul of Archaia. Based on an archaeological discovery (an inscription found in Delphi), Gallio's administration can be dated accurately to AD 51-52. The earliest extent Christian document, the epistle to the Thessalonians, was therefore written around AD 51 or 52; this means that it preceded the earliest gospel, Mark, by at least two decades. We can conclude that all the Pauline epistles were written between AD 51 and 64.

If you reject the historical value of Acts, there is little to anchor Paul at any particular point in history.

The only specific references in the epistles to people are to the pillars of the church in Jerusalem, James, Peter, and John. James may or may not be the brother of Jesus, may or may not have been the James mentioned in Josephus as having been stoned in 62 CE, which may or may not have had some relationship to his Christianity. And that letter (Galatians) may or may not have been forged at a much later date.

There are some more specific guesses here:

religioustolerance.org on Pauline epistles

There are some non-conventional scholars who read various passages in Paul's supposedly authentic letters and think they see apocalyptic language that leads them to believe that the letter must have been written after 70 CE. Others prefer to see that language as interpolation.

That's just a start.

Layman · 01-07-2004, 12:17 PM

'cometh the Paul myth!

Toto · 01-07-2004, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman
'cometh the Paul myth!

Cometh the baiting and off-topic personal harrassment.

I gather you can't find any problem with anything that I have written or referenced, or you would have made a substantive reply.

For the record, I think that there was a historic Paul. Why else would letters have been forged in his name?

Radcliffe Emerson · 01-07-2004, 12:48 PM

I think Paul is historic. I believe he invented Jesus and Christianity.

Layman · 01-07-2004, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Cometh the baiting and off-topic personal harrassment.

I gather you can't find any problem with anything that I have written or referenced, or you would have made a substantive reply.

For the record, I think that there was a historic Paul. Why else would letters have been forged in his name?

I find plenty wrong with almost everything you write Toto. But since I already have a full-time job and a family, I can't devote the necessary time to correcting it all.

Toto · 01-07-2004, 01:56 PM

Right, Layman

Okay, back on topic. This very issue was discussed on Crosstalk about a year ago.

Dating Paul from someone who explored the idea that Paul seemed to fit into the period following the Council of Jamnia ~ 90 CE (follow the replies, also this and following messages.

The speculation is interesting and inconclusive. Paul was probably a fairly minor figure from the provinces, until (1) Marcion lionized him and (2) the author of Acts made him the action figure hero of an entertaining tale of travel and adventure.

spin · 01-07-2004, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman
I find plenty wrong with almost everything you write Toto. But since I already have a full-time job and a family, I can't devote the necessary time to correcting it all.

Layman old son, you've shown no capability to be able to correct anyone. You can't even accept basic questions being asked without getting offended. It is plain to see that behind your attempts at logic is an apologetic drive. I'd attend to my family for a while if I were you. You might be more useful there. Hopefully you can return with a bit more methodology.

spin

spin · 01-07-2004, 08:14 PM

Quote:

We can therefore say with some certainty that this epistle was written while Paul was in Corinth. Around this time, according to Acts 18;12, Gallio was proconsul of Archaia. Based on an archaeological discovery (an inscription found in Delphi), Gallio's administration can be dated accurately to AD 51-52. The earliest extent Christian document, the epistle to the Thessalonians, was therefore written around AD 51 or 52; this means that it preceded the earliest gospel, Mark, by at least two decades. We can conclude that all the Pauline epistles were written between AD 51 and 64.

Before we can contemplate any of this bearing importance in the dating of Paul we have to date Acts. This is the sort of house of cards that makes doing historical research in nt materials so hard.

spin

rlogan · 01-07-2004, 09:34 PM

I think generally you'll find he wrote most of them in the evening...

01-07-2004, 10:54 AM	#1
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	When were Paul's letters written? Sorry, just a strange question: Do Paul's letters themselves provide an independent way of dating their production, I mean not considering the information in say Acts or any other. Are there any references within his letters which provide a dating clue, say a historical figure already substantiated? spin

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01-07-2004, 12:17 PM	#3
Layman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,635	'cometh the Paul myth!

01-07-2004, 12:48 PM	#5
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	I think Paul is historic. I believe he invented Jesus and Christianity.

01-07-2004, 01:56 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Right, Layman Okay, back on topic. This very issue was discussed on Crosstalk about a year ago. Dating Paul from someone who explored the idea that Paul seemed to fit into the period following the Council of Jamnia ~ 90 CE (follow the replies, also this and following messages. The speculation is interesting and inconclusive. Paul was probably a fairly minor figure from the provinces, until (1) Marcion lionized him and (2) the author of Acts made him the action figure hero of an entertaining tale of travel and adventure.

01-07-2004, 09:34 PM	#10
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	I think generally you'll find he wrote most of them in the evening...

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