Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sotto voce · 07-08-2012, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

The Apocalypse of John is silent on the earthly life of Jesus.

The reader can find some correlation with the Gospels only in two verses of the Revelation to Saint John. The first one (I,5) says : "and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood; ". The second verse (XI,8) says : "their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. ". But these mentions are considered by Alfred Loisy (1857-1940) to be late interpolations. I don’t feel I am able to conclude, but it seems to me that these mentions could be easily cut off the rest of the text.

Another point is that these verses seem strange to me. In Rev I,5, the phrase "the firstborn of the dead" is not frequent in the Gospels, when applied to Jesus. Clearly (?), the author makes an allusion to the resurrection of Christ after his crucifixion, and he also means that the ordinary dead will be reborn later. Another qualification, " the ruler of the kings of the earth " could bear a particular meaning. There is a belief, millenarianism or chiliasm, according which Christ would reign as a king of the world, and all the just, including the saints recalled to life, would participate in this kingdom, during one thousand years, before the final end of the world. This belief is developed in the Revelation. From the third century on, this millenarianism has been felt embarrassing and awkward by many Christians. The temporary future reign of Christ as king of the world can be seen as a contradiction with the immediate present reign of Christ in heaven proclaimed by the Gospels. From this viewpoint, the Apocalypse of John develops a rather primitive version of christianity.

What does this have to do with your own OP?

Iskander · 07-08-2012, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

The woman being Israel, of course.

M. Huon préfère Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu.

Speaking french is a good point for you.
But you don't get a good point in theology.
The woman IS Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu.

Revelation is very mysterious and I have never tried to understand it, but Professor Dale Martin teaches that chapter 12 is about the mother of church or the mother of the saviour.

That he interprets Revelation as in lesson 23 in his NT course at Yale does not necessarily make it the best interpretation, but in your case it makes yours an acceptable one.

You can access the video and the transcript in the links provided.

He is a clear speaker and listening to him with the transcript in front of you could perhaps be useful.

Revelation chapter 12: the woman and the dragon

Quote:

Then you have a long interlude, which is chapters 12, 13, and 14 which is about battles between the woman who's the mother of church or the mother of the Savior, and the dragon. Chapter 13 is about the dragon and the beast. Chapter 14 is about the lamb, the horned lamb which represents Jesus who's a horned lamb who is wounded

http://oyc.yale.edu/transcript/891/rlst-152

http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studie...-23#transcript

Apparently Catholics explain the perpetual virginity of Mary as the legal and moral consequence of being the wife of god. Joseph becomes a celibate caretaker!!

sotto voce · 07-08-2012, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

The woman being Israel, of course.

M. Huon préfère Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu.

Speaking french is a good point for you.
But you don't get a good point in theology.
The woman IS Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu.

Revelation is very mysterious

It is for non-scholars.

Iskander · 07-08-2012, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Revelation is very mysterious

It is for non-scholars.

I don’t claim to be one. I have spent my time in better things than learning about patristic trash and about the Greek Testament libel.

sotto voce · 07-08-2012, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Revelation is very mysterious

It is for non-scholars.

I don’t claim to be one. I have spent my time in better things than learning about patristic trash and about the Greek Testament libel.

It's strange how attractive trash can be.

Iskander · 07-08-2012, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

I don’t claim to be one. I have spent my time in better things than learning about patristic trash and about the Greek Testament libel.

It's strange how attractive trash can be.

I suppose it could be so

sotto voce · 07-08-2012, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

I don’t claim to be one. I have spent my time in better things than learning about patristic trash and about the Greek Testament libel.

It's strange how attractive trash can be.

I suppose it could be so

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