Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 10-03-2008, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

........ God knew from the start that Christians would face doubts and persecution. It is consistent with the rest of scripture.

But, God did not know that Christians would persecute Christians and non-Christians from the 4th century.

There are no scriptures that prophesied that Christians would be the leading PERSECUTORS from the 4th century and beyond.

Your faith in the scriptures appears to be invalid and erroneous.

bacht · 10-03-2008, 08:24 AM

from the anti-Pauline school:

What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
Jas. 2

Helpmabob · 10-06-2008, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

There are no scriptures that prophesied that Christians would be the leading PERSECUTORS from the 4th century and beyond.

Your faith in the scriptures appears to be invalid and erroneous.

It doesn't matter to the persecuted who does the persecuting.

Christians aren't perfect, I'll grant you that, but there is little evidence of saving faith amongst these 4th C 'christian' persecutors. Perhaps they were christian in as much as Judas Iscariot would have portrayed himself to be.

There are no scriptures prophesying our particular existence and life in detail, but we can't infer from that that we don't exist.

sschlichter · 10-06-2008, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petergdi

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJGraham

Would Paul's definition of faith preclude a Christian from having faith in the existence of Horus or Artemis?

That definition is from Hebrews. I don't think Hebrews is from Paul.

Paul seems to use faith to mean trust in God to an extent that results in complete submission to God. Faith in God is the same thing as being a slave to righteousness. Faith into Jesus Christ is the same thing as being a slave of Christ Jesus. Calling Jesus "Lord," if it is to be more than empty words, means identifying yourself as a slave of Christ.

I'm agnostic as far as the existence of Horus or Artemis. If I knew precisely what Horus or Artemis were and what it would mean to say they exist then I could have an opinion on the matter. All I can say is that I do not believe that they are gods to be worshipped.

There seems to be some idea that a monotheist must be sure of the non existance of other gods. I think this is silly. Monotheism does not require me to believe that the Showa emperor started to exist in August 1945 when he stopped being a god. Being a monotheist does not require me to think that the emperor Domitian never existed. Being a monotheist does not require me to say that money does not exist even though money is plainly worshipped as a god by very many people. If I knew who Horus was I might say "Of course Horus exists, but I've got no intention of worshipping him."

You might try looking at 1 Corinthians 8:

(4) Hence as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "no idol in the world really exists," and that "there is no God but one." (5) Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth -- as in fact there are many gods and many lords -- (6) Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (NRSV 1 Cor 8 4-6)

Peter.

I think this is an accurate portrayal of NT faith. The same word is used to demonstrate commitment, not just knowledge or belief.

Here, the same greek word is used to illustrate God's faithfulness or commitment.

(Rom 3:22) namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe.

The word conveys knowledge, belief, and commitment. not just a mental ascent toward something.

~Steve

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10-03-2008, 08:24 AM	#12
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	from the anti-Pauline school: What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. Jas. 2

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