Elijah

No I’ve never read strobel, but I thought the post was about questions raised about the martyrs that followed Christ.

I think you’re just trying to change the conversation truthfully.

My ideas are supported in the gospels, but you don’t allow them in your rules of engagement. And your not understanding me about the differences between Socrates and Christ. It’s like I’m holding up an orange and an apple and asking you if you see the difference and your yelling at me they’re both fruit, their both fruit, over and over again.

Mythra

Okay, Elijah. I'll call you on this claim. Show the evidence to prove that the disciples died martyr's deaths.

From a brief search, I came up with Origen and Eusebius as the primary information we have supporting this claim.

Origen was early third century. And Eusebius was early fourth century.

So, why should we think that these accounts are reliable? We have nothing to show that these stories survived by anything other than word of mouth. For several hundred years.

You don't suppose any of those stories got better with the telling do you?

Did you never play a game of telephone as a kid?

Elijah

Please read back to what I’ve already said about how loosely the word Martyr is used. Samson and babies, really?

I think that passage is a man who fully knows he is about to die and more then that knows he has to. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t afraid of his approaching death, but he was aware of what his death could and did mean.

I didn’t think that driver8's post was a serious inquiry.

mirage

God! Those stupid 7 brothers.

The only good thing about that story is at least they were all tortured to death, the fucking fanatics.

Elijah

The Stoning of Stephen
acts 7:54 Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him. 55But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56And he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 57But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together[b] at him. 58Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


The moment that inspired Paul.

spin

Stephen was not a disciple. Try again.


spin

Diogenes the Cynic

Like I said, it's an argument Strobel uses to support a historical resurrection and the reason it fails is because it's based on facts not in evidence.
I think you're just inexperienced with the discussion. This martyred apostle agument is a common one. The rebuttals have become routine.
The historicity of the Gospels is precisely the subject for debate. It would be circular to accept the historical claims of the gospels as proof for themselves. It's a common mistake made by neophyte apologists.
You're holding up two apples and insisting that one of them is an orange.

Mythra

Okay -we'll ignore that Stephen wasn't one of the twelve apostles. (you did know that, didn't you? ) And we'll pretend that Acts is historical. Show evidence of the other 10 martyrdoms. Bottom line - you can't. Because they rely on nothing more than tradition. Even Fox's Book of Martyrs admits that.

So, when someone says "why would the apostles die for a lie" - it's quite easy (and likely true) to say they didn't.

Diogenes the Cynic

I've already dealt with this. Stephen was not an apostle. Strobel's argument is that the apostles were willing to die for talking about something that they SAW. Stephen is not alleged to have been a witness of anything so his alleged martyrdom is of no use to Strobel's case.

Elijah

I like Stephen, I'll stick with him. Peter's there if you need him. But Stephen is clearly imitating Christ. The title Stephen went by back then in his relationship with Christ is irrelevant.

From wiki
A phrase in the last chapter of the Gospel of John refers to Peter’s martyrdom by crucifixion, though without reference to its location: "'…when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and take you where you do not want to go.' Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God" (John 21:18-19).