Doina

Ok, I am trying to ask a question. I have tried to read through the threads (and have read much other stuff, mostly gibberish), so I hope this isn't an old done question.

Actually 3 questions.

1) Can anyone point me toward a publication of the Vetus Latina, the oldest form of the bible (presumably NT) in Latin? Published? on net? definitely in Latin. I am looking at the forms of the names.

2) why do the two apostles appear in English with the name James? The usual explanation is that they are forms of the name (appearing in Latin and Greek) as Jacob(us), but they can't be. They appear to form(s) of the word Gemini (an extremely tentative theory, but there it is, and its mine, so don't ask me for a reference). But if so, how did they become connected to the Sts. James/Jacob in the NT?

3) when does James first appear as a name of an apostle in English? The oldest source of it I can find is the Wycliffe translation of 1380 AD. The name also appears in Irish as the form Seamus (how long ago, I don't know). But it does not appear in other German language versions of the NT. The usual place to check it is Gal. 1:19, but where that is missing (it is missing from the Gothic bible about 400 AD), Gal. 2:9 can be used. I am asking about the actual form of the name.

By the way, I am comparing the history of the pagan religions of IE speaking people and then I was just checking to see which pagan gods turned up as xian saints. But I cannot quite tell when this happened.

Much obliged if anyone has info on this.
Doina

Toto

Have you checked http://www.vetuslatina.org/ ?

James is somehow derived from Jacobus or or Iacobus or Ya'akov, but I don't know how Gemini would be linguistically related.

derivation of James

Toto

I had always thought that the Greek name Demetrius (Russian Dimitri) was related to James, but it appears to derive from the goddess Demeter. It is, however, sometimes translated as James.

Roger Pearse

I don't feel wonderfully qualified to comment on this. But..

There is no simple single publication of this. A series is being published by the Vetus Latina Institute at Beuron; it does of course include OT and NT. The main sources, you see, are patristic quotations rather than complete manuscripts.

Editions do exist of individual manuscripts, in the Old Latin biblical texts (7 vols, Oxford, 1883-1923).

How you would obtain access to any of this I am not sure.

Um, why not?

Um, is this confusion with Didymus Thomas?

No idea; sorry.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Jeffrey Gibson

Here's what the OED notes:

Quote:

a1225 Ancr. R. 192 For {th}i, sei{edh} sein Iame, ‘Omne gaudium [etc.]’. c1386 CHAUCER Shipman's T. 355, I thanke yow by god and by seint Iame. a1568 R. ASCHAM Scholem. I. (Arb.) 36 Thies yong scholers be chosen commonlie, as yong apples be chosen by children, in a faire garden about S. Iames tyde. 1641 Churchw. Acc. St. Margaret's, Westminster (Nichols 1797) 47 Paid to the singing men of the Abbie towards their feast at St James's tide. 1701 Lond. Gaz. No. 3718/4 The Fairs held at the City of Bristol at St. James-Tide..will not begin before the 25th of July. 1898 Westm. Gaz. 25 July 10/1 There is a popular saw that ‘Whoever eats oysters on St. James's Day will never want money’, and this is due to an indistinct connexion with the saint of the scallop shell.

As to its etymology, the OED gives us this:

Quote:

[a. OF. James (Gemmes, *Jaimes) = Sp. Jaime, Pr., Cat. Jaume, Jacme. It. Giacomo:{em}popular L. *{sm}Jacomus, for {sm}Jacobus, altered from L. Ia{sm}c{omac}bus, a. Gr. {Ilenis}{gaacu}{kappa}{omega}{beta}{omicron}{fsigm a}, ad. Heb. ya{ayinold}{abreve}q{omac}b Jacob, a frequent Jewish name at all times, and thus the name of two of Christ's disciples (St. James the Greater and St. James the Less); whence a frequent Christian name.]

Jeffrey

XKV8R

the story goes like this. every time the name 'james' appears in the nt, it is actually 'jacob' (heb: ya'aqov), like jacob and esau in the ot. the translators of the king james version wanted to honor the good king by putting his name in the bible. since there is no perfect english translation for 'ya'aqov,' the kjv ot rendered it the traditional/expected 'jacob.' however, every time the hebrew name ya'aqov appeared in the nt, they rendered the more anglo-friendly (and monarch-friendly) 'james'. thus, the apostles' names are actually 'jacob' (and are rendered thusly in the german translations). jesus' brother is actually named 'ya'aqov,' or 'jacob' and not 'james.' see the forged 'james ossuary' for details (the ossuary correctly says, 'ya'aqov,' but the inscription is still a forgery.)

so, 'james' isn't really in the bible, only jacob.

Solitary Man

Actually, XKV8R, James in the Greek is Ιακωβος, as opposed to Ιακωβ, the latter which is always used for Jacob of the Jewish scriptures while the former is always used of contemporaries, like the Brother of the Lord in Paul, the author of the epistle, and the two in the gospels.

XKV8R

why the different greek names for the same hebrew name?

Jeffrey Gibson

And what is the source of this "story" about the desires of the KJV translators?

Do you think those who perpetuate it have read Tyndale's translation, or Coverdale's or Matthew's or the Geneva or the Bishops Bible? Whom were they/these translations honouring one wonders?

Jeffrey

XKV8R

why, the james of the completely legit james ossuary, of course...