bacht

I searched some old threads about John the Baptist but didn't find what I wanted.

-------------------------

I'm assuming the Josephus passage is edited or interpolated, that the epistles are pre-gospel, and that Mark's gospel is historical fiction (no HJ).

Mark presents JtB as the original Christian witness, the voice crying in the wilderness (pace Isaiah), the returned Elijah as herald of the Day of the Lord (pace Malachi):

- Did this John invent the Christian ritual of baptism?
- Was there a real John who was the first Christian witness (one of Paul's pillars)?

Cut to the first epistle of John ch 5:

This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood.

And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.

The link is water. Is Mark saying that the baptists were the first believers? Is there any connection with the Johanine group?

Toto

Given your assumptions above, John could have been a real person who was added to the fictional Jesus story; there was a real Johannine movement, and the Jesus movement wanted to subordinate it somehow - so they invented stories about John bowing down to Jesus.

But Paul seems to know nothing of John the Baptist, and it is hard to identify the pillar John with John the Baptist, who was presumably beheaded well before Paul's time.

bacht

Thanks. You guys must get tired of rookie questions. I haven't read much of the secondary material, so I still excited about some of these things :blush:

vid

Aren't Gospels and Josephus ONLY primary resources about John the Baptist? In that case, you should be easily able to study "entire primary evidence" yourself, and see the vast amount of possibilities.

bacht

I don't know about a "vast amount" of possibilities. The other witness usually included is the survival of groups who were supposed to have been John's followers. The basic picture seems to be an apocalyptic preacher announcing the end. Maybe Mark didn't invent him, just adapted a known character. I don't trust Mark's story in general, but he could have been working with a real tradition.

I think the baptismal rite has been used to connect John with the Essenes, but this seems tenuous and possibly coincidental.