Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rlogan · 01-17-2004, 05:50 PM

I got a little curious about circumcision and cruised through the bible with word searches to see if I could find out why it was so important for Mom to have my dick mutilated when I was born.

I couldn't find any real direct statements. So with Dr. google in hand I went out and did some searching. It seems like the religious origin was to keep me from having fun during sex, as the foreskin is just packed with nerve endings. I did see that for some years it was thought this might have health benefits, but these have not been substantiated in recent literature.

After looking at the internet stuff I do see how some of the biblical statements could be using it as such in metaphors - colossians for example: "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"

Whether true or not in intent - the effect of circumcision is indeed to reduce pleasure from what I have read. So - thanks a lot Mom...

butswana · 01-17-2004, 06:13 PM

If it was done to make sex less fun, I would say they failed miserably. Over the past 20 years I(and scores of women) have had LOADS of fun with my dick.
I think my dick looks pretty cool too.
Fewer nerve endings would result in staying power. You would think that if the church wanted that filthy deed done as quickly as possible, they would want more nerve endings so as to increase the chance of the guy being a two-pump-chump.

Jeremy Pallant · 01-17-2004, 06:18 PM

I really don't think this would be best served in BC&H. I'll let the doctors and med students in S&S take a crack at this one.

rlogan · 01-17-2004, 06:50 PM

Jeremy - I was interested in the biblical basis for this. That is why I put it in BC&H.

Magus55 · 01-17-2004, 07:30 PM

Circumcision was the sign of a covenant with God. It is part of the Jewish covenant, not the Christian, so unless you're Jewish, your mom more likely did it for health reasons.

Shpongle · 01-17-2004, 07:32 PM

Genesis 17:

9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.

10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.

12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner-those who are not your offspring.

13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Godless Wonder · 01-17-2004, 07:46 PM

If you want the most fun, get your foot amputated instead. You think that sounds nuts?

Here's a quote from "Phantoms In The Brain" by V.S. Ramachandran.

Quote:

The next day the phone rang again. This time it was an engineer from Arkansas.
"Is this Dr. Ramachandran?"
"Yes."
"You know, I read about your work in the newspaper, and it's really exciting. I lost my leg below the knee about two months ago but there's still something I don't understand. I'd like your advice."
"What's that?"
"Well, I feel a little embarassed to tell you this."
I knew what he was going to say, but unlike the graduate student he didn't know about the Penfield Map. [ a map of areas in the brain that receive sensations of touch from nerves in the skin, forming a homologous map, of sorts. The area that receives sensation from the genitals is right next to the area that receives sensation for the foot. ]
"Doctor, every time I have sexual intercourse, I experience sensation in my phantom foot. How do you explain that? My doctor said it doesn't make sense."
"Look", I said, "One possibility is that the genitals are right next to the foot in the body's brain maps. Don't worry about it."
He laughed nervously. "All that's fine, doctor. But you still don't understand. You see, I actually experience my orgasm in my foot. And therefore it's much bigger than it used to be because it's no longer confined to my genitals."

Jesse · 01-17-2004, 07:47 PM

If the focus of this thread is going to be the religious origins of circumcision rather than the medical pros and cons, I think it belongs back in BC&H. Anyone interested in discussing the medical/sexual aspects of circumcision can go to one of these old threads:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=37718
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=47793
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=37366

sourdough · 01-17-2004, 08:52 PM

heres a funny bit from "bible quotes"at www.thewaronfaith.com

jeremiah4;4
" circumsise yourselves to the lord,remove the foreskin from your hearts"

(for the people who are dickheads deep down inside)

rlogan · 01-17-2004, 09:14 PM

yes, that was my intent - the relgious origins.

Magus, as would be anything in the OT it is of "Jewish" origin, but the christians also lay claim to the OT. Clearly, it was not something the Romans wanted to do at the time. But Jesus did it and spoke positively about it as part of the law. moreover he said that if something caused you to sin - to cut it off. That is what I am getting at. Is this the reason? I read what paul had to say - that it isn't necessary. But I am still interested in the origin. The justification.

I see that it is a covenant, but that is a peculiar thing to do in a contract with God. There has to be an underlying justification.

Pete - yeah I had read through that particular pasage and noted with interest the idea you have to circumcise your slaves too. As I understand it this custom was abandoned while they were wandering around the desert for 40 years. I don't see the connection. No contract while wandering.

I found some literature that said it pre-dated the OT and was an egyptian custom.

It's just so bizarre to me that something so radical is not spelled out in terms of justification. For example, consider how abhorrent the Americans are towards the concept of female "circumcision" in Africa. And yet that is what Americans do to the majority of their males!

01-17-2004, 05:50 PM	#1
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	Thanks Mom - for circumcising me I got a little curious about circumcision and cruised through the bible with word searches to see if I could find out why it was so important for Mom to have my dick mutilated when I was born. I couldn't find any real direct statements. So with Dr. google in hand I went out and did some searching. It seems like the religious origin was to keep me from having fun during sex, as the foreskin is just packed with nerve endings. I did see that for some years it was thought this might have health benefits, but these have not been substantiated in recent literature. After looking at the internet stuff I do see how some of the biblical statements could be using it as such in metaphors - colossians for example: "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" Whether true or not in intent - the effect of circumcision is indeed to reduce pleasure from what I have read. So - thanks a lot Mom...

01-17-2004, 08:52 PM	#9
sourdough Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: one nation under-educated Posts: 1,233	circumsision heres a funny bit from "bible quotes"at www.thewaronfaith.com jeremiah4;4 " circumsise yourselves to the lord,remove the foreskin from your hearts" (for the people who are dickheads deep down inside)

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01-17-2004, 06:13 PM	#2
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	If it was done to make sex less fun, I would say they failed miserably. Over the past 20 years I(and scores of women) have had LOADS of fun with my dick. I think my dick looks pretty cool too. Fewer nerve endings would result in staying power. You would think that if the church wanted that filthy deed done as quickly as possible, they would want more nerve endings so as to increase the chance of the guy being a two-pump-chump.

01-17-2004, 06:18 PM	#3
Jeremy Pallant Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA Posts: 1,242	I really don't think this would be best served in BC&H. I'll let the doctors and med students in S&S take a crack at this one.

01-17-2004, 06:50 PM	#4
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	Jeremy - I was interested in the biblical basis for this. That is why I put it in BC&H.

01-17-2004, 07:30 PM	#5
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Circumcision was the sign of a covenant with God. It is part of the Jewish covenant, not the Christian, so unless you're Jewish, your mom more likely did it for health reasons.

01-17-2004, 07:32 PM	#6
Shpongle Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Frozen North Posts: 9,920	Genesis 17: 9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner-those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

01-17-2004, 07:47 PM	#8
Jesse Moderator - Science Discussions Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Providence, RI, USA Posts: 9,908	If the focus of this thread is going to be the religious origins of circumcision rather than the medical pros and cons, I think it belongs back in BC&H. Anyone interested in discussing the medical/sexual aspects of circumcision can go to one of these old threads: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=37718 http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=47793 http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=37366

01-17-2004, 09:14 PM	#10
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	yes, that was my intent - the relgious origins. Magus, as would be anything in the OT it is of "Jewish" origin, but the christians also lay claim to the OT. Clearly, it was not something the Romans wanted to do at the time. But Jesus did it and spoke positively about it as part of the law. moreover he said that if something caused you to sin - to cut it off. That is what I am getting at. Is this the reason? I read what paul had to say - that it isn't necessary. But I am still interested in the origin. The justification. I see that it is a covenant, but that is a peculiar thing to do in a contract with God. There has to be an underlying justification. Pete - yeah I had read through that particular pasage and noted with interest the idea you have to circumcise your slaves too. As I understand it this custom was abandoned while they were wandering around the desert for 40 years. I don't see the connection. No contract while wandering. I found some literature that said it pre-dated the OT and was an egyptian custom. It's just so bizarre to me that something so radical is not spelled out in terms of justification. For example, consider how abhorrent the Americans are towards the concept of female "circumcision" in Africa. And yet that is what Americans do to the majority of their males!

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