Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rhutchin · 06-02-2011, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidstarlingm

I think the "straightforward reading" of Genesis 1 and 2 depends a lot on what translation you are using; different translations render it in different ways. Since I am no Hebrew scholar, I can't directly compare the various English translations to the Hebrew (beyond individual words), so translations are the best I can do. When I read this in my preferred translation, ESV, there seems to be very little conflict.

I understand that this is merely a translation. But if it makes plenty of sense when translated in this way, isn't it possible that this is the the way it was intended to be understood?

Quote:

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.

These are the generations
of the heavens and the earth when they were created,
in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground— then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

The first few sentences establish that the creation of the earth and universe, with all the inhabitants thereof, was completed. The indented portion signals a departure from the sequential narrative, and transitions to a new account. That indented portion is parallel with Genesis 1:27; chapter 2 is an expansion on Genesis 1:27 and chapter 1 is an expansion on Genesis 2:4.

The underlined words, "when" and "then", place the action of man's creation within a particular timeframe.

I don't know enough Hebrew to tell you what the difference is between "bushes and small plants of the field" and Genesis 1's "vegetation, plants bearing seed according to their kind", but I suspect that is has something to do with the parenthetical statement immediately following that I denoted in bold; in other words, the reference is to any plants of the fields that would need to be cultivated. So this is not placed at any time other than the 6th day from the Genesis 1 expansion of 2:4.

Quote:

Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.

This use of past perfect tense places everything in logical order, consistent with Genesis 1.

Conclusion: Genesis 1 is an expansion on Genesis 2:4, and Genesis 2 is an expansion on Genesis 1:27. Think of it as a self-referential loop: nice little literary device.

That's one explanation and it captures the ESV translation. I think the ESV translators have sought to convey the context for what is described and did not do a strict word-for-word translation (probably because so many people are confused by it). However, I ran across a paper that some Hebrew scholar had done explaining why 2:19 could not have been translated as "had formed." I think the Hebrew text only states this fact, "Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens," and the text does not tell us when this happened nor does it imply that this forming of the animals took place in the garden versus the earlier days as Genesis 1 explains.

rhutchin · 06-02-2011, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

rhutchin has stated that the Tablet Theory is a "different subject altogether" from what Wiseman hypothesized (not sure about that one.)

In that discussion, I said "The Tablet Theory is a different subject altogether," as being different from the subject matter then under discussion. My comment had no relevance to Wiseman. I just didn't want to go done that rabbit trail in that thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

rhutchin has also stated that "it appears that Adam wrote in old Hebrew." He didn't explain what gave him that impression, nor why there's no appearance of old Hebrew before the 10th century BCE, nor how the language would survive the Tower of Babel incident.

Old Hebrew as opposed to modern day Hebrew. Compared to modern day Hebrew, the Hebrew of Adam is a dead language.

With reference to Babel, God continued the existing language for one group of people (i.e., the line of Christ) while giving new languages to other groups. This would then have allowed Moses to work with the documents that had been handed down to him and understand them.

sweetpea7 · 06-02-2011, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Wikipedia seems to base its estimates on the earliest written documents that have actually been found. This does not mean that man could not have been writing before that time. From what we read in the Bible, there is no reason why Adam could not have written of those things that took place in the garden.

The "first man" did not have the cognitive ability for written language. How could Adam have written anything?

Also, does it make sense that approx. 46,000 years would pass with no evidence for written language, and then starting around 3400-3200 BC there is evidence? In all of that time, wouldn't some kind of written language be found had it been in existence?

rhutchin · 06-02-2011, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

To some extent. Given that the documents were not permanent and copies were continually being produced as time passed and under the supervision of the Scribes, we might expect those Scribes to update names of cities for the benefit of the readers.

Regardless, do you have an anachronism in mind that makes a difference with regard to the content of the Pentateuch or supports a point that you want to make?

The point I was trying to make I made back in post #31. If you subscribe to Mosaic authorship, but allow for redaction, how do you determine what has been edited and what hasn't? You actually have the problem no matter who you think the primary author/editor was.

I don't see that as a problem. All of the laws and interactions between God and Moses involve no redactions (at least, I can't think of any).

So, 99 % is easily attributed to Moses with no problems. Do you see an issue here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

As to the OP, there clearly seems to be two different creation stories between chapters 1 and 2, at the very least coming from two different sources and then spliced together, without all of the contradictions removed. (Contradictions I brought up in post #3, but you got sidetracked on my edit of that post and ignored the substance).

How do you get two creation stories? Gen 2 is a straightforward account of specific events that took place on the sixth day. The only issue you raised was 2:19, and here we have a statement of fact and there is no time element implied (i.e., nothing in the verse suggests that it is saying that God formed the animals in the garden).

Since you make contradictions plural, what else did you have in mind? I saw nothing in your earlier post on any other contradiction.

Saramago · 06-02-2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

With reference to Babel, God continued the existing language for one group of people (i.e., the line of Christ) while giving new languages to other groups.

Jesus spoke Aramaic. :constern01:

Quote:

This would then have allowed Moses to work with the documents that had been handed down to him and understand them.

Are you sure Moses could be trusted with those documents? He was a busy guy who had a pretty short temper. There was all that wandering around the desert for 40 years (crossing the Sinai Peninsula, which is about the size of West Virginia but flatter), striking rocks and cursing people so they died. And look what he did with those indisputably important stone tablets that YHWH had him take dictation on. I'm thinking that Moses is really not the kind of guy you'd rely on to take special care with paper or papyrus or scrolls for decades on end, much less to take good notes.

rhutchin · 06-02-2011, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetpea7

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Wikipedia seems to base its estimates on the earliest written documents that have actually been found. This does not mean that man could not have been writing before that time. From what we read in the Bible, there is no reason why Adam could not have written of those things that took place in the garden.

The "first man" did not have the cognitive ability for written language. How could Adam have written anything?

What would prevent that? Adam communicated with God and his wife, so they obviously had a language. Why should we think that Adam could not either spell the words he spoke or write down them down in some fashion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetpea7

Also, does it make sense that approx. 46,000 years would pass with no evidence for written language, and then starting around 3400-3200 BC there is evidence? In all of that time, wouldn't some kind of written language be found had it been in existence?

Doesn't make sense to me either. I'll stick with the Biblical time scale.

rhutchin · 06-02-2011, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

With reference to Babel, God continued the existing language for one group of people (i.e., the line of Christ) while giving new languages to other groups.

Jesus spoke Aramaic. :constern01:

Yep, and Greek (since that was the language of the Romans with whom He interacted) and Hebrew (since He went into the synagogue and read from the Hebrew scriptures). So? Did you have a point to make.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

This would then have allowed Moses to work with the documents that had been handed down to him and understand them.

Are you sure Moses could be trusted with those documents? He was a busy guy who had a pretty short temper. There was all that wandering around the desert for 40 years (crossing the Sinai Peninsula, which is about the size of West Virginia but flatter),...

No problem with me. It also seems that they spend most of the time, I'll guess at 38 years, in one location.

Saramago · 06-02-2011, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

I don't see that as a problem. All of the laws and interactions between God and Moses involve no redactions (at least, I can't think of any).

So, 99 % is easily attributed to Moses with no problems. Do you see an issue here?

Well, there's the small problem of the 2 versions of the Ten Commandments. Somebody got something wrong somewhere along the way and all evidence points to either God or Moses.

This is the version that's familiar (because Christians like it):

Quote:

Exodus 20:2-17, Deuteronomy 5:6-21

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

Do not have any other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

But Moses BROKE the tablets with those commandments on them. So, later, this happens:

Quote:

Exodus 34:1-5, 10-27

The LORD said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain....

So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. ...

I am making a covenant with you....Observe what I command you today.

Just to be clear, what follows are The Official Commandments, apparently God had changed his mind from what he'd said back in Exodus 20, but *hey* he's God, he can do that:

Quote:

See, I will drive out before you the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it will become a snare among you.

You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God).

You shall not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you will eat of the sacrifice.

And you will take wives from among their daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute themselves to their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their gods.

You shall not make cast idols.

You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.

All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male livestock, the firstborn of cow and sheep.

The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem.

No one shall appear before me empty-handed.

For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even in ploughing time and in harvest time you shall rest.

You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year.

Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel.

For I will cast out nations before you, and enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.

sweetpea7 · 06-02-2011, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

What would prevent that? Adam communicated with God and his wife, so they obviously had a language. Why should we think that Adam could not either spell the words he spoke or write down them down in some fashion?

There is a huge difference between oral language and written language. Societies tend to have oral language long, long before they have written language. There are some languages today that only have an oral form and no written form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Doesn't make sense to me either. I'll stick with the Biblical time scale.

One way to consider the matter is that the same God who gave the Bible, also gave us brilliant scientists who have achieved tremendous benefits for humanity in medicine, technology, engineering, and other fields. The same God who instructs those who take the Bible as scripture to be humble, and considers arrogance and pride among the worst of sins. Is it possible that those scientists help explain how God did his work, and the Bible helps people cope with the struggles that come with life--the why.

Saramago · 06-02-2011, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

No problem with me. It also seems that they spend most of the time, I'll guess at 38 years, in one location.

Leaving no archeological evidence. Riiiiiight.

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