Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rhutchin · 05-31-2011, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Rhutchin, how do you resolve the creation order differences between Genesis 1 and 2? Do you pick and choose?

Explain this to me. Genesis 2 very plainly deals with day 6 of creation and with events that begin with Adam being placed in the garden. It doesn't even deal with the creation order.

So, what is the issue that you have? What is there to pick and choose from?

Cantor · 05-31-2011, 01:40 PM

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html

schriverja · 05-31-2011, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Rhutchin, how do you resolve the creation order differences between Genesis 1 and 2? Do you pick and choose?

Explain this to me. Genesis 2 very plainly deals with day 6 of creation and with events that begin with Adam being placed in the garden. It doesn't even deal with the creation order.

So, what is the issue that you have? What is there to pick and choose from?

Genesis 1, day 6

Quote:

And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind, cattle, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the ground after its kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Notice Genesis 1 starts with nothingness, leading through plants, then animals, and finally the grand finale, male and female.

Now Genesis 2

Quote:

5 And no plant of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprung up; for Jehovah God had not caused it to rain upon the earth: and there was not a man to till the ground;

6 but there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And Jehovah God planted a garden eastward, in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9 And out of the ground made Jehovah God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So man created, but not animals (yet). Plants created after man.

Skipping ahead a bit

Quote:

And Jehovah God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him.

19 And out of the ground Jehovah God formed every beast of the field, and every bird of the heavens; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them: and whatsoever the man called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And the man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; but for man there was not found a help meet for him.

Now God has created animals (after man). No woman to be found yet...

continuing on

Quote:

21 And Jehovah God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof:

22 and the rib, which Jehovah God had taken from the man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And the man said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

edit: It's also worth noting that the second account, starting at Genesis 2:4 states fairly explicitly that the entire creation took one day, not six.

Do you really not see the difference?

Saramago · 05-31-2011, 06:16 PM

In Genesis 1, God (called Elohim) seems to understand the male/female thing. Genesis 1:27-28 says "male and female he created them", then told them to "be fruitful and multiply".

In Genesis 2, God (called Yahweh) seems pretty clueless about the male/female thing, at least for humans. Genesis 2:18-20 says God said "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him" so he brought all the animals he had made to Adam, who named them, however amongst all of these animals "for Adam no suitable helper was found" so THEN God gets the brilliant idea of making a woman.

Saramago · 05-31-2011, 06:20 PM

In Genesis 1:29, God (Elohim) says to the people he has created (at least one male/female pair, see above): “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food." Every plant/tree with fruit & seeds is available to the humans to eat, no exceptions. And "you" refers to male & female.

In Genesis 2:16-17, God (Yahweh) says to Adam, at that point the only human he'd created, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Not every plant/tree with fruit & seeds can be eaten. And "you" refers to Adam, at that point the only human he'd created.

sdelsolray · 05-31-2011, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Explain this to me. Genesis 2 very plainly deals with day 6 of creation and with events that begin with Adam being placed in the garden. It doesn't even deal with the creation order.

So, what is the issue that you have? What is there to pick and choose from?

Genesis 1, day 6

Notice Genesis 1 starts with nothingness, leading through plants, then animals, and finally the grand finale, male and female.

Now Genesis 2

So man created, but not animals (yet). Plants created after man.

Skipping ahead a bit

Now God has created animals (after man). No woman to be found yet...

continuing on

Quote:

21 And Jehovah God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof:

22 and the rib, which Jehovah God had taken from the man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And the man said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

edit: It's also worth noting that the second account, starting at Genesis 2:4 states fairly explicitly that the entire creation took one day, not six.

Do you really not see the difference?

Rutchin does not see the difference. Bank on it.

Rhea · 05-31-2011, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

In Genesis 1:29, God (Elohim) says to the people he has created (at least one male/female pair, see above): “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food." Every plant/tree with fruit & seeds is available to the humans to eat, no exceptions. And "you" refers to male & female.

In Genesis 2:16-17, God (Yahweh) says to Adam, at that point the only human he'd created, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Not every plant/tree with fruit & seeds can be eaten. And "you" refers to Adam, at that point the only human he'd created.

So, wait, Eve wasn't even made yet when the word came down to avoid one plant? God was relying on a just-created human to tell the other human? And this knowing that he had created Satan and knowing already what would happen and he didn't even give Eve a fighting chance to understand the danger?

Isn't this like me leaving a gun on the table and telling the 4yo to not touch it, but failing to mention it to the 3yo, and counting on the 4yo to take care of that?

PyramidHead · 05-31-2011, 08:33 PM

What does this have to do with evolution?

Saramago · 05-31-2011, 08:46 PM

Hmm, right. It's on-topic for the thread, "Genesis 1 and 2 Differences", but the thread may fit better in ABR.

But then how will rhutchin find it? :constern01:

PyramidHead · 05-31-2011, 09:03 PM

I think even BC&H would be more appropriate. See how his naive faith stands up to that expertise. But you're probably right, he will not follow it.

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05-31-2011, 01:40 PM	#2
Cantor Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 210	http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html

05-31-2011, 06:16 PM	#4
Saramago Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: ZIP 981XX Posts: 8,268	In Genesis 1, God (called Elohim) seems to understand the male/female thing. Genesis 1:27-28 says "male and female he created them", then told them to "be fruitful and multiply". In Genesis 2, God (called Yahweh) seems pretty clueless about the male/female thing, at least for humans. Genesis 2:18-20 says God said "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him" so he brought all the animals he had made to Adam, who named them, however amongst all of these animals "for Adam no suitable helper was found" so THEN God gets the brilliant idea of making a woman.

05-31-2011, 06:20 PM	#5
Saramago Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: ZIP 981XX Posts: 8,268	In Genesis 1:29, God (Elohim) says to the people he has created (at least one male/female pair, see above): “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food." Every plant/tree with fruit & seeds is available to the humans to eat, no exceptions. And "you" refers to male & female. In Genesis 2:16-17, God (Yahweh) says to Adam, at that point the only human he'd created, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Not every plant/tree with fruit & seeds can be eaten. And "you" refers to Adam, at that point the only human he'd created.

05-31-2011, 08:33 PM	#8
PyramidHead Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Providence, Rhode Island Posts: 4,389	What does this have to do with evolution?

05-31-2011, 08:46 PM	#9
Saramago Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: ZIP 981XX Posts: 8,268	Hmm, right. It's on-topic for the thread, "Genesis 1 and 2 Differences", but the thread may fit better in ABR. But then how will rhutchin find it? :constern01:

05-31-2011, 09:03 PM	#10
PyramidHead Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Providence, Rhode Island Posts: 4,389	I think even BC&H would be more appropriate. See how his naive faith stands up to that expertise. But you're probably right, he will not follow it.

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