Huon

Why not try :
St. Apollonia the patroness of the dentists,
St. Barbara the patroness of the firemen,
St. Veronica the patroness of the photographers ?

Father John van Bolland (1596-1665) dedicated himself to the study of the saints. Pete, the work you ask for has already been done long ago by the Bollandists.

Add : ... under the pressure of the protestants, who thought that most of the catholic old saints had never existed, or that the stories about them were BS.

mountainman

Dear Toto,

I agree that today they have been relegated to the category "folklore", however you will appreciate that this has not always been the case. Basilicas to this pair of figures were physically constructed, as early as the fourth century. Unless we are examining basilicas in the role of "Disneylands" those who constructed these buildings -- it would be a reasonable position to claim - actually believed that they were dealing with "real historical people" according to the then-present "folklore".

The earliest reference I have found to-date in respect of Cosmas and Damien is the following

Ambrose for some reason selected to be buried with the 2 physicians and not the 12 apostles. In the following century, the ecclesiatical historian Theodoret of Cyrrhus's Religious History, written around 440, mentions the pair again. However the question that needs to be clearly asked is this:

If Ambrose "discovered the bones of these "folklore figures" c.389, then did he have access to precedent literature by which he was able to recognise and indentify the most important find.

Thus it seems reasonable to surmise that this "folktale" must have been extant in c.389 CE, but it was not then identified as a "folktale" but as a history. I wonder who first published the "folktale or history" of Cosmas and Damian, earlier that century?We do not read that Ambrose found the bones to a figure of "folklore". We read that it is presented that he is an archaeologist, in the mold of perhaps Helena, and is dealing with actual history, not folklore. In this manner, an examination of the facts points to the conclusion that a history was fabricated at some stage, before 389 CE, and was then believed by both the "christian writers" of that epoch and the populace. The belief that this "folklore" was "history" was dramatically reinforced by the construction of basilicas. It appears reasonable to presume that Ambrose had an existing story to work with to fit the bones he found. Who wrote it and when? This is what I would like to know. Can anyone provide an answer?




Best wishes,


Pete

Clivedurdle

Another thing I am not sure happened is this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletian

Clivedurdle

The Oxford Dictionary of Classical Myth and Religion (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Introductory essay to this notes that no one in the Greek or Roman world would have understood the question what religion are you. Part of the problem may be we are assuming people self identified themselves as xian and that this had a commonly accepted meaning. Because we are post creed and heresy maybe we are misreading what things were like before these ideas were invented.

Clivedurdle

Is not Ambrose wanting to be buried next to them the same as Edward wanting to be buried at Glastonbury next to Arthur's Grave - which was dug up complete with a twelth century inscription - here lies Arthur.

mountainman

Dear Clivedurdle,

The persecution of the Manichaeans and the burning of their writings is a tradition well attested through the fourth and fifth centuries by the christians. The Manichaean persecution under Diocletian I had thought to be attested to via an inscription. In regard to the supposed christian persecution under Diocletian, I agree with you.

The question of the OP here examines the microcosm of the historicity (or indeed literary invention) of the figures of Cosmas and Damian, as an exercise in the macrocosm of the historicity of jesus and christianity itself. So far we have worked our way back to Ambrose in 389 CE, who managed to convince himself and others that he found the bodies of "folklore characters" Cosmas and Damian, and planned his eternal rest beside them in a basilica.

Who first wrote about Cosmas and Damian? I honestly dont know. Who does?


Best wishes,


Pete

mountainman

Dear Clivedurdle,

Precisely. Here the OP seeks substance for Cosmas and Damian in the third century when they purportedly lived, and is not met with any evidence whatsoever. It needs to be stated however that there are mountains and mountains of archaeological evidence for the existence of pagan healing cults of physicians around the location of Aegae, such as that also in the tradition of Apollonius of Tyana, who has a generous inscription towards his historicity.

Before the ideas of Cosmas and Damian were invented we had a well established class of people in antiquity performing the function of the "public hospital system" for want of a better term. See the second century physician (to Marcus Aurelius) Galen, and the therapeuta of Asclepius for example.

If the "folklore" of Cosmas and Damian was grafted on to the history of the pagan physicians, based on geographical locations which were previously reverred and central in the practice of ancient medicine, when was this done and by whom, and for what purpose?

The drilling has stopped with Ambrose c.389 CE.
Where did the story originate, and with which author?

Best wishes,


Pete

mountainman

Dear Clivedurdle,

Yes it appears to be a burial tradition of the christians which has been invoked since at least the time of Julian's uncle Con.

Best wishes,


Pete

mountainman

Dear Huon,

I have a suspicion that Pope Damasius (366 to 384 CE) did major christian renovations to the Roman catacombs, providing niches for the remains of many "dead christian saints".

Best wishes,


Pete

Huon

St. Pothinus Bishop of Lyons, circa 177 CE.

St. Blandina, virgin and martyr, belongs to the band of martyrs of Lyons who suffered a glorious martyrdom in the reign of Marcus Aurelius (177) and concerning whose death we have a report sent by the Church of Lyons to the Churches of Asia Minor (Eusebius, Church History V.2). According to this report, "they endured nobly the injuries heaped upon them by the populace". Probably Pothinus and his followers were friends of the Phrygian Montanists, but St. Irenaeus, Father of the Church, hijacked their martyrdom, while condemning their beliefs.