spin

You think you have the right interpretation of "the Lord's brother", huh?

Perhaps you think that Ahijah is also James?


spin

Layman

Me and an army of scholars, yes.

And since my and their understanding coheres with the Gospel authors, Josephus', Heggessepius' and the Ebionites' understanding, it has much greater explanatory power and requires many fewer ad hoc rationalizations.

Toto

Ahijah

Thanks, spin. Fascinating. Brother of the Lord. Common name in the OT.

spin

Doh! The army of "scholars" again. Love that sort of authority.

Well, aren't they written well after Paul??? After all no church father shows knowledge of the gospels before Justin Martyr.

Try it out on Paul's works; that's where it counts. How many times does Paul use the unqualified kurios not as a simple title but as a complete reference to Jesus (not to God the Father)?? It's worth the effort to see the very few places it is used.

I'd say Paul is against you.


spin

Layman

I do respect expert opinion.

Mark was probably written about 15-20 years after Galatians. All Martyr's reference does is set an outside date. We know Luke existed well prior to that because Marcion carved it up for his own gospel. And since Luke depends heavily on Mark, we've placed Mark back much further.

I think all usages are relevant. Like I said, my theory has more explanatory power in that one explanation quite reasonably explaines Paul's usage as well as the Gospels', Josephus', and the Ebionites. Yours only purports to explain Paul's and then has to come up with more complicated separate theories to explain the Josephus, the Gospels, and the Ebionites.

If it is worth the effort why didn't you do it?

Paul's usage in Galatians shows he means Jesus as Lord. Especially in Chapter 1.

Paul begins the chapter by referring to Jesus as Lord.

Gal 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,

Then again uses Lord in the same chapter.

Gal 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother.

Like I said, the simplest explanation for this usage as well as those in the Gospels, Josephus, and of the Ebionites, is that Paul meant James was literally Jesus' brother.

Another example:

1Co 16:22-24: "If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed. Maranatha. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen."

Remember, to Paul, Jesus is Lord:

Phi 2:9-11: "For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Rom 10:9-13 : "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed, For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

That last sentence sure seems similar to Galatians 1. We open by announcing Jesus is Lord, then refer to him as Lord throughout the passage.

1Co 12:3: "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit."

Rom 14:4-9: "Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."

This passage is replte with references to Jesus as Lord even without couching it with other titles.

Given that Paul tends to favor this title for Jesus--usually using "Lord" for GOD when quoting the OT--and that the passage in Galatians begins by clarifying that Lord means Jesus, you've got an uphill battle to fight.

Not by a long shot.

Can we have this tanget moved to another thread? It has nothing to do with the OP.

spin

I already have in another country. I have no books where I am, except a bible and a copy of the scrolls.

You have misunderstood what I said with unqualified use of kurios. "Jesus is lord" is basically adjectival. What I said was "a complete reference to Jesus". Find the few examples of where kurios is used instead of the name Jesus and go from there -- where God is not the real reference. (Sorry that you've done the work that you have for little return... you can half blame me.


spin

Layman

I gave plenty of other examples you are ignoring. As you ignore the usage of "Lord Jesus Christ" just a few verses above "Lord" in Galatians Chapter 1.

If you can prove this when you get back then please do. I will be out of town for a few days myself.

spin

1) With the phrase "Lord Jesus Christ" you have "kurios" as a title, you know like "Doctor" as in "Doctor Henry Kissinger".

2) "Jesus is lord" contains "kurios" as a qualification.

3)"James the Lord's brother" contains a use of "kurios" which is neither a title nor a qualification, but as an absolute reference, which could be a substitute for a name.

#3 is what I'm talking about.

Such a use in Greek is usually representative of the Hebrew YHWH.


spin

Layman

No. 1 is a meaningless distinction. If you believe that Jesus' title is "Lord" you'd have no problem calling him "Lord." Paul often uses the term "Jesus Christ" but is just as free to call him "Jesus" standing alone or "Christ" standing alone, despite the fact that the latter is obviously a title.

No. 2 is not using lord as a qualification. It is a declaration as to who Jesus is. What is being qualified?

And I gave you examples of No. 3:

Rom 14:4-9: "Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."

Other examples.

1 Cor. 7:22: "For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave."

1 Cor. 11:26-27: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes. Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord."

1 Cor. 10:21: "You cannot drink the cup-of the Lord and the cup of demon; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."

2 Cor. 5:10-11a: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, wether good or bad. Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord...."

1 Thess. 4:16-17a: "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of our Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heavent with a shout...."

1 Thess. 3:11-12a: "Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our say to you; and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another...."

1 Thess. 1:8: "You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit."

Some examples from Hebrews.

Heb. 2:3: "how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed by those who heard."

Heb. 7:13: "For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests."

So can we dispense with this silly notion that "Lord" is never so used?

And you continue to ignore the fact that Paul opens Galatians by telling us he is referring to the "Lord Jesus Christ." That he uses "Lord" again a few verses later therefore is best understood as referring to Jesus.

So you keep saying. Please provide examples that do not include Paul citing from the OT. And prove that it is "usually."

spin

HTF would you know?

You address a person by a title or you use the title before the person's name. Get it?

The copula provides information about the subject, ie qualifies it.

= YHWH

Christ is Christ. "We are the Lord's."

He (Christ) might be lord both of the dead and the living.

Lord in this last example is clearly #2.

Other examples.


= YHWH

Bingo.

And it's here that we get one of the very few specific gospel references.

= YHWH (For the Lord's table, see Mal 1:7,12; cup of the Lord, Hab 2:16)

= YHWH (fear of the Lord!)

= YHWH (parousia in Paul is a generic term; see Malachi 3:2. All of 1 Thes 4 seems to be Jewish eschaton)

= YHWH

= YHWH (see Eph 5:1)

Not Pauline.

Jews can use adonai for both God and people of respect. It gets done in Greek as well, as in this case.


spin