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Old 01-19-2012, 08:08 AM   #1
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Default Pliny the younger has DESTROYED the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church

It has been brought to my attention that Pliny's letter to Trajan about the Christians have UTTERLY destroyed the the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church.

The Pliny letter to Trajan has DOCUMENTED that Pliny himself did NOT ever know about a character called Jesus and did NOT know what Christians believed up to 110 CE.

Pliny himself LIVED in Rome and had to TORURE Christians in Bythinia because he had NO knowledge of the Beliefs of Christians.

Before and After the TORTURE of the Christians there was NO mention at all of Jesus by PLINY himself.

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/texts/pliny.html

Trajan to Pliny
Quote:
....Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses.

But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition
.
....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger
Quote:
Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus, born Gaius Caecilius or Gaius Caecilius Cilo (61 AD – ca. 112 AD), better known as Pliny the Younger, was a lawyer, author, and magistrate of Ancient Rome....
It is ALL over for the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church.

Pliny the younger was a LAWYER and MAGISTRATE in ROME and did NOT ever hear of Jesus and that Christians worshiped such a character BEFORE and AFTER TORTURE up to 110 CE.

It is NOW known without any reasonable doubt that the Jesus story is an INVENTION which was fabricated sometime AFTER 110 CE.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:20 AM   #2
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How about a proto-christianity that did not know Jesus?

Christians, according to Melito of Sardis, and Tertullian, were doing their thing during the reign of Augustus (d.14 c.e.)

Quote:
Melito: Bishop of Sardis, Bishop of Ittica, and Bishop of Ittica. (d.180 c.e.)

For the philosophy current with us flourished in the first instance among barbarians;and, when it afterwards sprang up among the nations under thy rule, during the distinguished reign of thy ancestor Augustus, it proved to be a blessing of most happy omen to thy empire. For from that time the Roman power has risen to greatness and splendour. To this power thou hast succeeded as the much desired possessor; and such shalt thou continue, together with thy son,if thou protect that philosophy which has grown up with thy empire, and which took its rise with Augustus;

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/melito.html
Quote:
TERTULLIAN AD NATIONES (160 – 225 c.e.

This name of ours took its rise in the reign of Augustus; under Tiberius it was taught with all clearness and publicity; under Nero it was ruthlessly condemned, and you may weigh its worth and character even from the person of its persecutor.
So - Christians without Jesus! And is that not the story of the wonder-doer now contained within Slavonic Josephus? A nameless figure. Indeed, this figure dies on a cross and his followers believe “that he is living, although he is dead. It’s the resurrected, the “living’ nameless figure that is important not the life that such a figure might have previously lived. Looks to me the table is set for a spiritual Christ figure - and the nameless dead wonder-worker is no longer the focus. Yes, in time, for whatever reason, the wonder-doer story gets an update - and the gospel JC is ‘born’. But in the meantime - its Christians believing in Christ not Jesus. That day was down the line. So the question becomes when did the wonder-doer story become the gospel Jesus story? And that update, when it would eventually come - might well leave some Christians wanting to stay with the old storyline - and take some time to adjust to the new ‘orthodox’ position.

Re the question of adding the name of *Jesus* to certain passages in Slavonic Josephus:

Regarding of the use of *Jesus* in connection with the Josephan prophecy regarding Vespasian:

Quote:
Josephus' Jewish War and Its Slavonic Version, A Synoptic Comparison (or via: amazon.co.uk)

H. Leeming (Editor), K. Leeming (Editor)

Page 38

The point is that sometimes, in the margins of manuscripts of the Greek text, interpretations of this passage favouring Christ can be found, evidently owing to some pious mediaeval copyist.

Page 262

Footnote: #174, further in Vil and A an addition: If Josephus the Jew called him wonder-doer and the works he performed divine and super-human, we, orthodox and Christian people, firmly informed by the holy prophets and the divine apostles and the most worthy historians, call him Jesus, our Lord, just as the great and God-speaking evangelists say, eye witnesses of the true word, which truly was.
The Slavonic Josephus wonder-doer account in the text at sacred-text.com does not use the word *Jesus* in the crucifixion story - whereas the book ‘Josephus' Jewish War and Its Slavonic Version, A Synoptic Comparison’ does - but has the above footnote. (preview on google books)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-3.htm

*Jesus*, according to Philippians, is the new resurrection name of the crucified man. A new name that became available to update the wonder-doer storyline into the gospel JC story.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:39 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by maryhelena View Post
So the question becomes when did the wonder-doer story become the gospel Jesus story?....
Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer who lived in Rome has ANSWERED the question.

It was AFTER 110 CE that the Jesus story was INITIATED.

It is clear that Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer did NOT ever hear about a character called Jesus, had NO idea what Christians believed and MET his FIRST Christians in BYTHINIA, NOT Rome, and TORTURED some to find out what Christians believed.

Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer who lived in Rome has destroyed the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:46 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by maryhelena View Post
So the question becomes when did the wonder-doer story become the gospel Jesus story?....
Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer who lived in Rome has ANSWERED the question.

It was AFTER 110 CE that the Jesus story was INITIATED.

It is clear that Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer did NOT ever hear about a character called Jesus, had NO idea what Christians believed and MET his FIRST Christians in BYTHINIA, NOT Rome, and TORTURED some to find out what Christians believed.

Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer who lived in Rome has destroyed the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church.
Christians, aa5874 - were doing their thing long before Pliny was born.....
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:16 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874
Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer who lived in Rome has destroyed the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maryhelena
Christians, aa5874 - were doing their thing long before Pliny was born.....
But not with the Historical Jesus.

You seem NOT to understand that Pliny DESTROYED the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church, NOT Christianity.

Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer corroborates that there were Christians that did NOT know of Jesus of Nazareth and that Pliny himself did NOT know of Jesus.

Christians were doing their thing BEFORE the Jesus story was FABRICATED.

We know people were called Christians because they Believed they were ANNOITED with the Oil of God.

Christians were doing their thing WITHOUT an Historical Jesus.

To Autholycus 1
Quote:
And about your laughing at me and calling me "Christian," you know not what you are saying.

First, because that which is anointed is sweet and serviceable, and far from contemptible.................Wherefore we are called Christians on this account, because we are anointed with the oil of God.
Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer who lived in Rome has DESTROYED the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church.
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:29 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874
Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer who lived in Rome has destroyed the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maryhelena
Christians, aa5874 - were doing their thing long before Pliny was born.....
But not with the Historical Jesus.
Of course - since there was no historical Jesus they didn't have an option did they now?

Quote:

You seem NOT to understand that Pliny DESTROYED the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church, NOT Christianity.
aa5874 - you know as well as I do that there was no historical Jesus - so there was nothing for Piiny to destroy......

Quote:

Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer corroborates that there were Christians that did NOT know of Jesus of Nazareth and that Pliny himself did NOT know of Jesus.
So?
Quote:

Christians were doing their thing BEFORE the Jesus story was FABRICATED.
Correct.

Quote:

We know people were called Christians because they Believed they were ANNOITED with the Oil of God.

Christians were doing their thing WITHOUT an Historical Jesus.

To Autholycus 1
Quote:
And about your laughing at me and calling me "Christian," you know not what you are saying.

First, because that which is anointed is sweet and serviceable, and far from contemptible.................Wherefore we are called Christians on this account, because we are anointed with the oil of God.
Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer who lived in Rome has DESTROYED the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church.
It's going to take a lot more than Pliny not knowing about Jesus to destroy the historicist's position on the gospel JC.
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:56 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874
You seem NOT to understand that Pliny DESTROYED the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church, NOT Christianity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maryhelena
aa5874 - you know as well as I do that there was no historical Jesus - so there was nothing for Piiny to destroy......
Well, I really don't know about you.

All I KNOW is that Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer who lived in Rome has DESTROYED virtually the ENTIRE NT, the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church in his Letter to Trajan about the Christians.

Pliny himself did NOT KNOW one single thing about Jesus, did NOT know what Christians believed and MET Christians for the FIRST TIME in Bythinia, NOT Rome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryhelena
...It's going to take a lot more than Pliny not knowing about Jesus to destroy the historicist's position on the gospel JC.
But did you not just tell me there was no historical Jesus? Please apply some logic to your own statement!!

The historicist does NOT have any position--there is NO historical Jesus.

Come on, maryhelena. This is so basic.
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Old 01-19-2012, 01:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874
You seem NOT to understand that Pliny DESTROYED the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church, NOT Christianity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maryhelena
aa5874 - you know as well as I do that there was no historical Jesus - so there was nothing for Piiny to destroy......
Well, I really don't know about you.

All I KNOW is that Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer who lived in Rome has DESTROYED virtually the ENTIRE NT, the Historical Jesus and the History of the Church in his Letter to Trajan about the Christians.

Pliny himself did NOT KNOW one single thing about Jesus, did NOT know what Christians believed and MET Christians for the FIRST TIME in Bythinia, NOT Rome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryhelena
...It's going to take a lot more than Pliny not knowing about Jesus to destroy the historicist's position on the gospel JC.
But did you not just tell me there was no historical Jesus? Please apply some logic to your own statement!!

The historicist does NOT have any position--there is NO historical Jesus.

Come on, maryhelena. This is so basic.
OK - lets stop this silly word game - the historicists have an assumed position - they assume, they have an assumption regarding the gospel figure of JC....
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Old 01-19-2012, 01:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
The historicist does NOT have any position--there is NO historical Jesus.

Come on, maryhelena. This is so basic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maryhelena
OK - lets stop this silly word game - the historicists have an assumed position - they assume, they have an assumption regarding the gospel figure of JC....
What silly word games you play!!!! You should not "play" silly word games with yourself.

Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer who lived in Rome MET Christians for the FIRST TIME in 110 CE and NOT in Rome but in Bythinia and they did NOT even know of Jesus.

What a Shocker!!!!

The Jesus story was Fabricated AFTER 110 CE and was UNKNOWN in Rome.
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Old 01-19-2012, 02:43 PM   #10
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Were Athenagoras or Theophilus ever in Rome, or just in Athens and Antioch respectively??

Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
The historicist does NOT have any position--there is NO historical Jesus.

Come on, maryhelena. This is so basic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maryhelena
OK - lets stop this silly word game - the historicists have an assumed position - they assume, they have an assumption regarding the gospel figure of JC....
What silly word games you play!!!! You should not "play" silly word games with yourself.

Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer who lived in Rome MET Christians for the FIRST TIME in 110 CE and NOT in Rome but in Bythinia and they did NOT even know of Jesus.

What a Shocker!!!!

The Jesus story was Fabricated AFTER 110 CE and was UNKNOWN in Rome.
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