Classical

I had every opportunity in the world as a sincere believer to be "led by the spirit" to have "the truth of the bible revealed to me," and nothing happened.
Much to the contrary, one old book reversed a lifetime of religious teaching. Did the "spirit" abandon me in my time of need?

I cannot possibly throw out my "own understanding" or negect my intelligence, because if there is a god, then I trust my ability to reason and make judgments came from this creator and can use this reason to do such things as assess a document for what it is worth.

Plus, have you ever heard of the ancient Latin maxim, FALSUS IN UNO, FALSUS IN OMNIBUS?

It is only reasonable when there are glaring contradictions and known inaccuracies in the bible (if you doubt this, you must study the subject), and that since the bible is "false" in one case, then the remainder of its contents then becomes suspect, although much could still be true.

Good dialogue going here! :thumbs:

johntheapostate

I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing on his right and on his left. And the Lord said, who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there? One suggested this and another that. Finally a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, "I will intice him" "By what means" the Lord asked. " I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets" he said. " You will succeed in enticing him" said the Lord " Go and do it " So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. 2 Chronicles 18:18-22 The christian must prove that the bible was recorded by the insperation of god through some prophet, but he must also prove that information is not a lie from god meant to intentually decieve the recipiants of the message. Good luck with that.

Classical

ouch! :notworthy

Xulfer Cirtsag

You know, this is an excellent point I hadn't really thought of before, at least not explicitly. I may have to use it at some point if a debate someplace springs up again. Last night I had someone state that God and Jesus don't want to see anyone go to Hell. So I asked, "Well then, what about the native Americans at the time of Jesus and just after?" To that effect, at least. I haven't gotten an answer on that one.

The whole Bible-worshipping thing just gets really weird at times. For a couple of weeks here on a local Christian radio station, Mark Daniels, a host, was exhorting Christians to send money so as to alleviate the great Bible famine in Africa.

If there were a God, and I that God, I would freaking slap Mark Daniels hard.

Columbo

Classical,

Ofcourse - there would probably be differences in what we consider false. That's the problem - I've even seen atheists disagree on what is false or contradictive.

But I was referring to possible mistake of man, a better analogy than the leaf - might be spectacles.

When you have various objects on your spectacles - dust, or skin - or whatever - you can still "see" through them clearly. Sight prevails. Likewise - for me the bible basically prevails against subjective and supposed contradictions IMHO.

Columbo

Also - I wasn't trying to sell you anything. I'm just telling what I believe is the truth - I know memory isn't perfect, but I wasn't intentionally trying to sell you anything. :huh:

May I ask a question though? Did you take upon you this premise I spoke of - of assuming it is, as a whole - supposed to be "one" in it's message and try and completely "open" yourself to that message? Be honest.

johntheapostate

It does not therefore depend on mans desire or effort, but on Gods mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh "I raised you up for this very purpose,that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me " then why does God still blame me. For who resists his will.?" But who are you O man to talk back to God ? " Shall what is formed say to him who formed it "why did you make me like this?" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for commen use? What if God choosing to show his wrath and make his power known bore with great patience the objects of his wrath, prepared for destruction. What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory " Freewill or predestination is my pet peeve, and I have gone into it in detail in the thread by the same name. Christians try to let god off the hook by claiming that man freely chooses his fate in regards to salvation or damnation. This can be refuted using these scriptures Romans 9:16-23, verses most christians choose to ignore or use theological gymnastics to blur the obvious translation of pauls words. I dont want to debate the concept of predestination in this thread, but I will in the other thread. In short when someone insists that god does not want anyone to be damned, they are willfully or through ignorance ignoring these and many other parts of scripture that acknowledge the concept of predestination. Predestination is a concept that most christians protest. And rightly so, for in the concept of freewill lies most of the apologetics concerning the justice and benevolance of the christian god.

seebs

Could you start by explaining what exactly you mean? For instance, do you mean "Word of God" or "word of God"? What does "word of God" mean?

Classical

When I refer to "word of god" I mean the same as "Word of God" or "word of God." Capitalization has nothing to do with it.

What I mean by this is what the fundamentalist, evangelical churches mean and that is the belief that the bible is not a book "written" by men, but that god either supernaturally moved the hands of the writers, or supernaturally planted the words and thoughts into their heads and then personally oversaw this dictation and all translations into every language so that it is without error of any kind. It is infallible, perfect, and beyond questioning because it is directly a revelation from god the creator given directly to man through god by a divine, supernatural transmission.

When discussing this issue, I love to use Thomas Paine. He asks the following question to one who believes the bible is the word of god:

"Upon what authority do you believe the bible to be the word of god? The Koran also makes this exact claim. Do you believe it is also the word of god? If not, why not? It is because you say it is and you say it is not and that is no authority to me!"

Classical

"no sale" is just an expression for I don't buy it - doesn't add up, etc.

As for totally opening myself up to the message of the bible - please, you have no idea the level of what I now see as indoctrination I had undergone. I totally opened myself up to the bible and for years I believed it and cherished it as wholeheartedly as any christian could. I read and studied it daily, memorized enormous parts of it, slept with it in my arms (literally) and treasured it with my whole heart.

This "love affair" with the bible is a memory now but I still have my original bible from my youth sealed in its leather cover in my bedroom closet. I have never turned on it like many have, although I realize what it is. Because I am a musician, I still treasure parts of it for its artistic worth and actually the whole work because I think, in spite of it all, that it is an amazing document.

All that being said, opening myself to the bible on any other level is not known to me. It was like the time I tried to receive the baptism of the holy spirit. I sat for weeks in the groups who were mumbling foreign phrases all around me but nothing happened. We prayed and prayed and prayed for it to happen, but nothing until I began to mumble some gibberish just to make people think it was happening and to divert the attention away from myself.

Perhaps I was not predestined to believe.

So I guess we simply disagree. You have an interesting view of the bible, a more liberal view than what I grew up with, but I don't find the arguments for believing it to be god's word convincing. It appears to me you have convinced yourself of this, and that is fine with me.

HOWEVER, what is not fine with me is that many of those who hold to the view that the bible is the literal word of god are using it as a WEAPON to trample all over people and impose their narrow viewpoint onto our society and legislating their religious views on those who do not believe. Look what happened in the US when the issue of gay marriage surfaced. No way, no way, no way, voted the majority of Americans. And why? Because the bible says it is an abomination!

Quoting from Joseph Wheless, IS IT GOD'S WORD, Introduction, p. vii:

"Why such fraticidal and destructive religious intolerance? Why such fatal differences and hatreds, all about questions simply of theological belief? It is because of the presumption of human beings, out of ignorance, that they had received Divine Revelation. It is the belief that the unknowable had been given to Mankind through a Divine Transmission in remote times past, that was the root of all bigoted religious intolerance."