Classical

How can a christian possibly argue based on the assumption that the bible is the word of god?

It is so obvious to anyone who bothers to investigate that this premise completely falls to pieces upon very simple questioning, so how can any intelligent person believe this? We know that there are many very well educated people with high IQs who believe this, so how can this be? Are they just being stubborn? Are they just not considering the possibilities?

I supposedly believed the bible was the word of god for many years, but when faced with the question why, I had to admit I had no good answer to the question. It was obvious to me that I believed it because I was taught to believe it. There was no other reason and I took a long time trying to find reasons.

Why do most people take it for granted the the bible is true?
Are we not doing our job to expose this falsehood? :huh:

Vorkosigan

Yet another variation on the entirely unnecessary theme of "Are Christians yammerheads?" Off to GRD.

Columbo

Well, first of all - just how sure can anyone be, that it isn't the inspired words of God?

How can you say for sure? You can't. Admitt it - you just can't be certain that you're right. For example, what if it is? What if one day - God told you it is?

Classical

I'm going to make an assumption: your response was a joke.

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

Columbo

No.

Please answer - how can you be absolutely certain you are correct. I'd really like to know what evidences such a strong conviction, so I can see if it's a good enough reason to think that you can know for sure if these events and teachings aren't from God. You must have 4D eyes or something. Can you see back in time?

newtype_alpha

For starters, none of the people who wrote the Bible were "God." You can go down the list of every man who ever put pen to paper in what later came to be known as scripture, and each and every one of them was a mortal man with a human mother, born naturally, died naturally. The only human character in the Bible who has even been argued to have been God was Jesus, and he never wrote even a single word of the New Testement with his own hand. The only evidence that the Bible is in any way shape or form delivered to humans by some divine influence is the word of the people who wrote it. It's up to THEM to demonstrate one way or another whether or not any of their claims are true, particularly about just how their writings were "inspired" by God.

Incidentally, the Bible itself never claims to be inspired by anything at all, other than a cryptic remark (1 Timothy 3:16, I believe) which states that "all scripture is god breathed and worthy for reprove, rebuke or correction." Plenty of times in the NT we see apostles and writers adding their own opinion to the text, and furtheremore admitting to be adding their own opinion to the text. Most of all, however, most of the writers of the NT (and OT for that matter) never even intended their writings to be included in scripture in the first place.

So by what authority can you claim the Bible is the "inspired word of God" by any rational standard?

Classical

I will post more later, but for now I say the burden on proof is not on me, because the claim is enormous, and the burden of proof is on the claim.

Since the bible is far, far from alone in its claim of being the word of god, how can anyone judge fairly which, or any these documents, are the word of god?

Now I just wrote a book about my deconversion, and if I claimed that my fingers and hands were mysteriously moved by allah to show the world that christianity is the wrong religion, would you believe this claim? Don't you think the burden of proof would therefore be on me?

I cannot say for utter certainty that there is no god of the bible or that this god did not choose to give mankind a message in such recent times as a couple of thousand years ago, but I feel very certain that this is the case. There are many more reasons not to believe the bible is the word of god, than to take a stab in the dark and believe it is.

Columbo

It's not that I'm claiming it's the inspired words of God - I'm honestly wondering what makes you absolutely certain it isn't.

These reasonings are why you think it isn't - but is this an absolute certainty?

How can you know? None of these reasons can enable you to actually know if God's Spirit inspired a man or not.

Columbo

Good answr. I apreciate your honesty. :thumbs: You're a top guy IMHO.

You asked this question, and you say the burden of proof is on me - but I'm not claiming anything about the bible. I'm not claiming it's the words of God in this topic. And I'm not trying to prove or convince anyone it is. So when you say;


Please realize that I'm not attempting to prove anything.

I'm genuinely wondering how convinced anyone can be.
You said you "feel" you are right. That's fair enough, and I already get the impression you are an objective mind. I "feel" the bible is God's inspired words, but I'm not attempting to prove it - I just believe it, not by assumption (though when I was young I took it as granted).

Columbo

Hey Classical, I've nevr got that far before without an atheist being argumentative. I feel I've earned a prize because this looks to be a productive insight into both our mindsets now - rather than silly subjective heated-exchanges. Good show. :thumbs:

(Seriously....I'm pretty darn impressed)