Danpech

Christians have claimed that a man rose from the dead. Atheists had, until recently, viewed this claim as if Christians were almost claiming that 2+2 had, at one brief point in time, equaled 5. It was simply impossible for a man to rise from the dead. To believe it was possible was a superstitious belief in magic.

In denying the existence of God, atheists have normally also denied the possibility of life after death. To deny the existence of God means to assert metaphysical materialism. Metaphysical materialism says that once you're dead, that's it. You are just a collection of matter, so that once your body stops functioning, you no longer exist, and your body cannot be made alive again.

Metaphysical materialism also says that biological life originally came from non-life. An inorganic slop evolved into organic slop and then, from there, into microscopic life forms; at the end of the process, apes evolved into humans. And, the whole process, from beginning to end, happened all by itself, without any sentient designer. This idea, of the origin of biological life from non-life, is called abiogenesis. To the atheist, life is just a machine that somehow evolved into having thoughts and feelings. Belief in abiogenesis is the result of denying the existence of God.

But, abiogenesis is not the worst claim made by atheists. Nor, even, is the denial of the existence of God the worst claim. The worst claim is the claim to have the potential to create life from non-life. In the fields of Artificial Intelligence and Artificial Life, many atheists claim that man has the potential to create life. This is not the mere claim to be able to make a mere machine. It is the claim to be able to make a machine that thinks and feels; machines that are fundamentally more than machines. Such a claim is implicitly to claim to be God. It allows that man can, with enough technology, raise a man from the dead.

In denying the existence of God, atheists were forced to redefine life in a way that actually allowed the possibility of the very thing they denied: that a man can rise from the dead. The difference, though, is that the atheist, in refusing to recognize the hand of God, looks so scientifically far out beyond his own nose that he, at first, fails to see the immediately obvious: that he is alive in a way that is fundamentally more than the mere actions of a machine---he himself thinks and feels. Abiogenesis grants that there are things that have no thoughts or feelings. But, in order to grant that there are things that have no thoughts or feelings, one must already have granted that the quality of thought and feeling is not identical to the quality of a mechanism---that life is fundamentally more than a machine. The question of how a machine can evolve into having thoughts and feelings can only be answered by an appeal to magic---to a miraculous, supernatural power. But, to admit such a power is to admit the existence of God.

God does not need to write his name in the stars in order for people to be guilty of rejecting him. If there is no God, yet man is obviously guilty of every evil already---and atheists admit that man is, indeed, guilty. The problem is that atheistic man will stop at nothing in the effort to prove, by the actual accomplishment, that man can be his own God; even if the effort wreaks havoc on society and on the earth (Rev 11:18).

But, the bigger problem is that some Christians hope to find some proof of God that is as undeniable as seeing the name of God plainly written in the stars. The reason this is the bigger problem is because such a hope, if it were simply fulfilled, would allow Christianity to become the biggest insitution of Pharisees of all time (given that so many Christians have a tendency to wish to have the chance to really beat atheists over the head). By not writing his name in the stars, God is forcing Chistians to remain in their place of representing Christ. You see, the atheistic view of science and thought is not the product of atheists. It was, rather, the very essence of Adam's fall.

Lavrenty Beria

Danpech:

You're obviously an intelligent person. You write very well and are able to express sophisticated concepts simply.

When I wonder why someone as bright as you might continue to be a Christian, I speculate that it might be because of the peaceful feelings that you must experience when you pray or meditate. I've had those feelings before: "The peace that surpasses understanding." I used those feelings as evidence of the Lord. However, about 30 months ago I began to take a serotonin-reuptake-inhibitor (i.e. Celexa). After awhile, I recognized that the general internal calmness that I felt was very similar to the feeling that I would have when I prayed and meditated. I realized that these "feelings' were not based on a spiritual medium, but were merely a function of my neurotransmitters. I would say that was the beginning of my acceptance of Materialism.

I've recently read a few materials about the "biology of belief." It makes sense to me. As much as "life" coming from nonlife.

By the way, I do realize that your belief system is entirely your business. Nonetheless, its been my observation that people tend to vote in accordance with their belief system, to everyone's detriment.

Steven Carr

I remember a medical scientist, when asked if his decisions meant that he was playing God, replied that somebody had to.

God doesn't seem to be there to play God, so we have to.

Your quote Revelation 11:18 says 'The time has come to destroy those who destroy the Earth'.

The Christian answer to everything - kill people , if they are wicked.

spin

Given unlimited chaos and unlimited time you will eventually end up with a certain amount of order. It's only a matter of time, isn't it?

Gravitation begins to take effect and we have complex clusters of matter and complex clusters of complex clusters and complex clusters of complex clusters of complex clusters. And so it goes. Again, it's only a matter of time, isn't it?

Given enough potential difference between two adjacent locations and you will get electrostatic discharge. That won't take any time at all, will it?

Given enough carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen in that chaotic soup and you will eventually end up with some extremely complex carbon molecules. Once again, it's only a matter of time, isn't it?

Given enough complex carbon-hydrogen-oxygen-nitrogen molecules and enough time, you'll eventually get changing molecules, molecules which will start to be more than just molecules, molecules which will change state because of their structure, molecules which will allow the build up of energy within themselves. Yes, it's only a matter of time, isn't it?

Given enough time and a discrete amount of electrostatic discharge and you have the potential for life emerging from those complex energy-bearing molecules. It's only a matter of time, isn't it? Yes, admit it.

Given enough time in a context which contains enough life-bearing molecules and you will have cells emerging, cells which will eventually have the ability to duplicate themselves. Oh, yes, a matter of time.

Fungus, and given enough time you'll end up with estremely complex fungus. George Bush.

And time is what we have plenty of for such scenarios.

Look mum, no deux in machina up my sleave.

Given a room full of monkeys with typewriters and unlimited time, eventually one of them will come up with a complete bible. Yet again, it's only a matter of time, isn't it?


spin

secular buddhist

Danpech,

One of the things about posts like yours that many of us find offensive is that you seem to think that you know what atheism is and how atheists think and how they feel. Yet it is clear that you have never really had a conversation with an atheist, or if you have you didn't really listen to what she was saying. I suggest that instead of expounding on what you think atheism is you try to engage a few in conversation. You cerainly have no hope of converting anyone, if that is your goal, until you actually understand the other person well enough to converse with them. Posts like this just turn people off, and people quit listening, assuming that you have nothing to say. And until you actually understand the person with whom you are trying to converse, you really don't have anything to say.

Sparrow

Got any real evidence to back up this assertion?

Does 'life' require sentience? If so, bacteria and virusses are clearly not alive, right? Could some entity, smarter than humans, but not omiscient, omnipotent, eternal create a thinking machine?

Postcard73

The OP covers a lot of ground, and I'm not exactly sure where this thread belongs. I think the main idea is the connection between man's fall and science, so I'm gonna try S&S. Sorry if that is wrong.

Scott (Postcard73)
BC&H Moderator

the_cave

Actually, it looks to me like a Philosophy question--what is the nature of sentience, and does it arise from matter and energy (and if so, how.)

On the other hand, it's phrased as though it's an E/C question. So take your pick.

Infidelettante

Hello Danpech, welcome to IIDB.
And to believe that a man rose from the dead is to believe magically. But then so much of your faith is magical. There are demons and spirits that can be directed or opposed. Good and evil exist as entities that can move from person to person or from thing to person or from thought to person.

Having been a minister of the gospel I now find Christianity to be magical to its core. One can, by recitation, avoid or mitigate trouble. One can bring boon and blessing. One can defeat an enemy or assist a friend.

Indeed I find Christian thinking to be even more magical than the thinking of persons Christians regularly and soundly condemn for practicing magic. I am one of those persons. An occultist. A ritualist. A Pagan. I know a great deal about magic. You know so little that you don’t even recognize it when you speak it.

There are many who deny the existence of your God and yet believe in an afterlife. This is one of those annoyances we find so trying in theists. The certainty that you know what everyone else thinks and so have the right and duty to inform them of the incorrectness of it.

But you didn’t even know that your own thinking was magical until a minute ago. Why should I, who knows both Christianity and the magic arts listen to you when it is obvious you know so little of either.

There is no such thing as non-life. Let me introduce you to the thinking of a modern Pagan. I warn you that it is a form of symbolic thinking which theists, as we have seen, find difficult to comprehend.

Life as we understand it comes from the living universe which Mother God births into existence. Mother God gives birth to all things at every moment. All things live through and by her. All things return to her in the endless cycle of birth, life, death, regeneration and rebirth.

Your Jesus is a metaphor of this life process. The young god born of the virgin mother who matures into his vital life giving powers and as he offers himself as a sacrifice for this life becomes his own father and is re-birthed. You see how magical your thinking is. And you had no idea.

Have you even one source for this? If many atheists claim man could create life there must be a periodical or two that says so. Peer reviewed perhaps? A book? A thesis? Something in the fields of Artificial Intelligence and Artificial Life would be acceptable. Otherwise we return to that afore mentioned talent of theists to know what everyone else thinks. How tiresome.

Now isn’t that interesting. An appeal to magic. See, you theists can’t really do without it. You only rail against us poor Pagans and our magic because in the back of your minds you know what you really believe in is magic. You are so afraid the world will find out that you shout out condemnations of the witches and magicians in hope of distracting attention from your own occultist leanings. Better that you should embrace them and discover the true source of your power. Your own being.

Only let me say that to reference that most magical of books is, well, magical.
And here we see just how little you understand of the magical nature of your religion. It was your God who put knowledge and eternal life in trees. And your magician God, fearful that his creations would take of the tree of life and equal his magic condemned them to forever search for the spell, the potion, the word that would return them to their rightful place as gods.

And in a perfect example of sympathetic magic one tree, the cross, atones for what was taken from the first. But you are blinded by the magic your God works just as he had hoped. You fear magic so that you can’t see it even though it swirls round you in the stories and words of your own scriptures.

You fear your own power. Yours is the power through magic to set yourself free and claim your true place in creation. We were meant to be Creators. To be Magicians. To be Gods.

JT

Godless Wonder

Danpech, first off, welcome to iidb. Secondly, you write very well.

Why do you use the word "worst?" Why is abiogenesis "bad?" (You imply this by writing it isn't the "worst?"

Why would creating life from non-life be "bad?"

And is this merely a claim? Check this, from 11/13/2003:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/science...ife-usat_x.htm