Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 09-09-2009, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Ancient claimants
1. Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE)
2. Simon of Peraea (4 BCE)
3. Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE)
4. Judas, the Galilean (6 CE)
5. John the Baptist (c.28 CE)
6. Jesus of Nazareth (c.30 CE)
7. The Samaritan prophet (36 CE)
8. King Herod Agrippa (44 CE)
9. Theudas (45 CE)
10. The Egyptian prophet (52-58 CE)
11. An anonymous prophet (59 CE)
12. Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 CE)
13. John of Gischala (67-70 CE)
14. Vespasian (67 CE)
15. Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE)
16. Jonathan, the weaver (73 CE)
17. Lukuas (115 CE)
18. Simon ben Kosiba (132-135)
19. Moses of Crete (448)

That's why I asked how you knew that only one of these was known as the Christ - one who did not fulfil the requirements for the Messiah by Jewish standards?

aa5874 · 09-09-2009, 04:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Chaucer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Do you have any evidence at all for this assertion? Even Christian sources?

Was Bar Kochba known as the Messiah a/k/a Christ? Or does he not count for some reason?

Bar Kochba comes well after Josephus. He's not relevant here. Of course, he got termed Messiah. But James was the only contemporary of Josephus who had a family member with the title "Messiah".

And in what time period did this James have a brother who was called Christ in Antiquities of the Jews?

andrewcriddle · 09-10-2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

One problem is the extreme reluctance of Josephus to use Lord (Kurios) as a Greek equivalent of God/Yahweh. If Josephus had meant what Zindler suggests he meant, then he would probably have said Brother of God (Theos). Remember Josephus is writing for non-Jewish readers who would be simply confused if Josephus wrote James the Brother of the Lord meaning James the Brother of Yahweh (which seems an unlikely title anyway).

Andrew Criddle

Hi Andrew,

I am confused by this comment. Didn't Jospehus write, in Antiquities Preface 1:4 write,
"I mean, unless they be taught first of all, that God is the Father and Lord of all things"

Jake

Hi Jake

Josephus certainly describes God as the Lord. What he apparently never does in narrative is use 'Lord' as a straight name/synonym for 'God'. In the Septuagint we have continual uses of 'Lord' (Kurios) as a synonym for 'God' (House of the Lord, stood before the Lord, the Lord said, Word of the Lord etc). Josephus in reported speech has characters say 'Lord' when they mean 'God' and he once in a passage based on Isaiah uses 'Lord God' when he means 'God'. But that seems to be as far as it goes.

The Septuagint is full of uses of 'of the Lord' (Kurios) as an equivalent to 'of God'. Josephus does not seem to use this construction at all. 'James the brother of the Lord' meaning something like 'James the brother of God' is just not a Josephan way of writing.

Andrew Criddle

jakejonesiv · 09-10-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Remember Josephus is writing for non-Jewish readers who would be simply confused

Surely the Romans would be familiar with the mystery cult useage of the divine Lord (Kyrios/Adonai), son of the supreme deity Theos Pater. Jesus was Lord in the same way that Atargatis, Dea Syria, and Dionysos Dusares were Lord.

andrewcriddle · 09-12-2009, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Remember Josephus is writing for non-Jewish readers who would be simply confused

Surely the Romans would be familiar with the mystery cult useage of the divine Lord (Kyrios/Adonai), son of the supreme deity Theos Pater. Jesus was Lord in the same way that Atargatis, Dea Syria, and Dionysos Dusares were Lord.

Hi Jake

IIUC Zindler's argument is that Josephus originally said "brother of the Lord" without any reference to at all Jesus, ie meaning something like "brother of Yahweh".

IMO non-Jewish readers would have found this confusing.

Andrew Criddle

jakejonesiv · 09-13-2009, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Surely the Romans would be familiar with the mystery cult useage of the divine Lord (Kyrios/Adonai), son of the supreme deity Theos Pater. Jesus was Lord in the same way that Atargatis, Dea Syria, and Dionysos Dusares were Lord.

Hi Jake

IIUC Zindler's argument is that Josephus originally said "brother of the Lord" without any reference to at all Jesus, ie meaning something like "brother of Yahweh".

IMO non-Jewish readers would have found this confusing.

Andrew Criddle

Would they have been confused by the brethren of Lord Mithras?

Jake

GakuseiDon · 09-13-2009, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Hi Jake

IIUC Zindler's argument is that Josephus originally said "brother of the Lord" without any reference to at all Jesus, ie meaning something like "brother of Yahweh".

IMO non-Jewish readers would have found this confusing.

Andrew Criddle

Would they have been confused by the brethren of Lord Mithras?

Jake

I would be. Who are the brethren of Lord Mithras???

DCHindley · 09-13-2009, 10:21 AM

It might be a masonic order.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ADo...ras%22&f=false

Or maybe something to do with Hermetic or modern-day Gnostic types.

Maybe he doesn't know either.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Would they have been confused by the brethren of Lord Mithras?

Jake

I would be. Who are the brethren of Lord Mithras???

spin · 09-13-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Would they have been confused by the brethren of Lord Mithras?

I would be. Who are the brethren of Lord Mithras???

What about "brothers of the cross"? How about "sons of thunder"? Or "sons of the dawn" (from the DSS)? Or "sisters of (no) mercy"?

spin

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