shome42

When I asked my high school theology teacher for proof that God was real, he replied that many of the people who actually knew Jesus were killed for professing their faith in him. My teacher said it's quite possible people die for religion that may be a lie, but people won't die for something they KNOW is a lie. If in fact the whole Jesus story is fake, then the disciples would have known that, and therefore gone to their deaths for what they knew wasn't true.

What is your response to this?

David B

Koresh. Jones. Heaven's Gate. The 9-11 bombers. Those other guys who believed in space aliens who topped themselves. Catholic martyrs. Protestant martyrs. Cathars. Followers of Manson.........

The disciples might have been as deluded as all the above, is really the point.

David B (wouldn't find that unprecedented)

Biff the unclean

The disciples knew that the Jesus story was a fake because they were fictional characters in the same fictional story.

Ask your teacher if Jane would have gone through all those hardships in the jungle if she knew that Tarzan was a fictional character.

David B

In addition to what I said, Biff might be right.

After all, non biblical contemporary or near contemporary evidence of christ is zilch.

David B (still uses the working hypothesis that there is usually some kernel of (non-supernatural) fact behind a myth)

shome42

I took for granted that there was enough evidence to assume that the a guy named Jesus really existed, he really had a 12 man entourage, and that 12 man entourage really was killed for believing in Jesus.

David B

There isn't, really. I mean - go look for some that passes sceptical examination.

Like contemporary eyewitness accounts, even from true believers, but better from non believers.

David B

shome42

I have no idea. I don't have the time or expertise to sift through all the information and conflicting "experts." I guess my question here assumes that Jesus existed, he had 12 apostles and they all died for believing in him. If we assume those things to be true, is there no rebuttal to the arguement?

Mageth

Another point: the accounts of the disciples' various martyrdoms are generally traditional tales (many possibly originating long after the 1st century), and not actually recorded and verifiable events. In other words, there's little actual support for the veracity of the accounts.

Another point, perhaps minor: a person or a group of people (e.g., a mob, or a government) that is quite intent on killing someone (e.g., one of the disciples) because of the religion he or she is associated with typically aren't concerned as to whether the person actually believes the religion. E.g., once you're thrown into the Coliseum with the lions because of your association with Christianity, it doesn't matter a bit what you actually believe.

shome42

Yes, but there is a distinction. The 911 bombers didn't personally know Mohammed. Koresh never personally met God. Etc... All of those people's delusions were predicated on unfalsifiable beliefs. If you actually met Jesus, you'd know for certain whether or not the story of him being divide was made up...he either really did perform miracles or he didn't.

Mageth

Or people might believe a person IS divine or whatever else the peson claims, even with first-hand exposure. And people even die in the name of people or causes even knowing that the claims thereof are probably bogus!

Koresh's followers believed in him to the death. As did Bob Jones's. Joseph Smith convinced a lot of people that he really met angels and received golden tablets therefrom. Some of those people died as the result of their belief in Joseph Smith. Lots of Japanese died in WWII fighting for an Emporer they believed divine (and some even realizing he wasn't divine!); lots of Germans died in WWII believing in the outlandish promises of Hitler - and some of them even after being disillusioned continued to fight and die! Lots of people have died that have been "exposed" to first-hand knowledge of claims of the people they've died in the name of.