Soul Invictus

The source I'm using is the Catholic Encyclopedia. Their version states:

"We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

Maybe those with Greek can assist, but can someone address my issues?

1) When the creed states:

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ,

What is the Greek definition of "God", or a "god" as compared to the Greek definition of a "Lord" or "lord" and what would be the distinction between the two types of concepts? There are some problems that I'm seeing with this, and I wanted some clarification before I proceed further.

Peter Kirby

I think they, partly, just wanted to stick with traditional NT phraseology. There is no reference to "God Jesus Christ" in the NT. Plenty to "Lord Jesus Christ."

There may be a desire to avoid getting into some perceived logical problem with the Trinity through the way it is phrased, but I haven't discerned that yet.

mountainman

The reference you have provided is not the
original Nicene Creed. You'll find that it
is a later evolution of the creed approved
by subsequent councils in the fourth century.

If you are interested in the original wording
of the creed, which your questions suggest, then
you'll have to look for translations of a number
of Ecclesiastical Historians, such as Philostorgius,
Rufinius of Aqueila, Socrates Scholasticus, Hermias
Sozomen and Theodoret of Cyrus. Also, Eusebius'
"Life of the Blessed Emperor Constantine" has a
section on the "council minutes".

Here is a translation of
Socrates.

The original Nicene creed has a disclaimer clause
written specifically to address the words of Arius, and
appended thereto 22 sub-creeds associated with the
civil and administrative operation of the new ROman church.

Huon

Arius' Letter to Alexander of Alexandria (excerpt)
320 CE
(from Athanasius, De Synodis, 16. LNPF ser. 2, vol. 4, 458)
Our faith from our forefathers, which also we have learned from thee, Blessed Pope, is this:--We ackowledge One God, alone Ingenerate, alone Everlasting, alone Unbegun, alone True, alone having Immortality, alone Wise, alone Good, alone Sovereign; Judge, Governor, and Providence of all, unalterable and unchangeable, just and good, God of Law and Prophets and New Testament; who begat an Only-begotten Son before eternal times, through whom He has made both the ages and the universe; and begat Him, not in semblance, but in truth; and that He made Him subsist at His own will, unalterable and unchangeable; perfect creature of God, but not as one of the creatures; offspring, but not as one of things begotten; nor as Valentinus pronounced that the offspring of the Father was an issue; nor as Manichaeus taught that the offspring was a portion of the Father, one in essence; or as Sabellius, dividing the Monad, speaks of a Son-and-Father; nor as Hieracas, of one torch from another, or as a lamp divided in two; nor that He was was before, was afterwards generated or new-created into a Son, as thou too thyself, Blessed Pope, in the midst of the Church and in session has often condemned; but, as we say, at the will of God, created before times and ages, and gaining life and being from the Father, who gave subsistence to His glories together with Him. For the Father did not, in giving to Him the inheritance of all things, deprive Himself of what He has ingenerately in Himself; for He is the Fountain of all things. Thus there are Three Subsistences. And God, being the cause of all things, is Unbegun and altogether Sole, but the Son being begotten apart from time by the Father, and being created and founded before ages, was not before His generation, but being begotten apart from time before all things, alone was made to subsist by the Father. For He is not eternal or co-eternal or co-unoriginate with the Father, nor has He His being together with the Father, as some speak of relations, introducing two ingenerate beginnings, but God is before all things as being Monad and Beginning of all. Wherefore also He is before the Son; as we have learned also from they preaching in the midst of the Church. So far then as from God He has being, and glories, and life, and all things are delivered unto Him, in such sense is God His origin. For He is above Him, as being His God, and before Him. But if the terms 'from Him,' and 'from the womb,' and 'I came forth from the Father, and I am come' (Rom. xi. 36; Ps. cx. 3; John xvi. 28) be understood by some to mean as if a part of Him, one in essence or as an issue, then the Father is according to them compounded and divisible and alterable and material, and, as far as their belief goes, has the circumstances of a body, Who is the incorporeal God.
Source :
http://ecole.evansville.edu/arians/arius2.htm

Soul Invictus

Thanks for the info and the link. Good luck to me on finding those earlier translations. I'm assuming you don't have them.

About the link, I am copying a small portion:

This version still declares the belief in a God and a Lord...so my questions are still valid. Anyone have any thoughts about my questions on the Greek?

Amedeo

In: The Nicene and Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed
http://www.thenazareneway.com/nicene...itan_creed.htm

Greek version of the Nicene Creed

[[The annoying ?* replaced the Greek P. It starts: Pisteyo^...]]

So, the word they use for God is THEOS {in the accusative case after "I believe"}, and the word for Lord is KYRIOS. Son of God - Yios tou Theou. Since in the Gospel, Jesus is quoted saying, "Eli, Eli... [or Eloi, Eloi...]," undoubtedly, Theos translates the Biblical Elohim or El.

With reference to the Old Testament, the English word God translates ELOHIM as well as EL; the English word Lord or "LORD" translates YAHWEH, which is often orally replaced by ADONAI [= lord]; sometimes Yahweh is explicitly called Lord in the Bible, so English uses "The Lord God" to avoid "the lord Lord."

I think that when in the Greek Christian Scriptures, Jesus is called Lord [Kyrios], the term translates the generic word Adonai [not Yahweh]. (I don't have any reason to believe that the Gospel writers were directly acquainted with Genesis:2 or other pages where Yahweh is spoken of, or they assumed that "Yahweh" was another name of El.)

Riverwind

Just to provide further clarifying information... Arius was the one deemed a heretic for his views that were said not to be in sync with tradition. Athanasius was the one whose championed views became orthodoxy.

Equinox

One note about understanding the Nicene Creed, is to understand the different Christianities around at the time. It was important for the Roman Church to make it clear that it was in charge, and that these other Christianities were not to be joined. In some ways, the Nicene creed is a line by line refutation of the other Christianities. Today, Christian rattle it off and it’s mostly meaningless, since most Christians agree on most points of the Nicene creed. But, at the time, each line addressed a controversial issue – like if a “creed” today said something like:

We believe all abortion is murder
We believe homosexuality is a sin, and that homosexual partnerships and adoptions must be prevented
We believe that providing welfare only encourages lazyness, and is therefore evil
We believe that nuclear power is of the devil, and should never be used

Saying that would indeed exclude some people, and oppose groups that disagreed.

Some of the groups that were being aimed at by the Nicene creed appear to be as follows:

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. (((Refutation of the Marcionites & the Gnostics )))
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; (((refutation of the Arians)))
who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, (((ref of Ebionites))) and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried ((( refutation of the Docetists))), and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end. ((((Refutation of the Gnostics)))
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified (((Refutation of various Monarchianists))), who spoke by the prophets ((( Refutation of the Marcionites))).
And we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (((refutation of any other rival churches, such as the Novatists, in case you haven’t gotten the picture that the Roman Church is to be in charge)))
And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. (((refutation of “spiritual resurrectionists, such as those in 2 Corinthians”)))


Have a good day-

Equinox

andrewcriddle

FWIW "whose kingdom shall have no end" is almost certainly an attack on Marcellus an extremist colleague of Athanasius.

Marcellus was accusing of holding that the distinction between God the Father and God the Son was only a matter of this age and that hence the kingdom of God the Son would have an end in the world to come.

Andrew Criddle

Ben C Smith

Stephen Carlson has the original Greek.

Ben.