Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 03-21-2008, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Furiae

There really doesn't seem to be any evidence for the theory that Christians destroyed the library, so as I said, adding that into it will just overshadow the reality of any Christian brutality with unjustified claims.

The reality of christian brutality, persecution and intolerance from the time of Constantine, to the time of the destruction of the library, and well past this time, is quite well documented. The fourth century is renown as the century of christian persecution and intolerance, with good reason. Have a look a Vlasis Rassias' Demolish Them!, and Index of Citations Evidencing the Burning and Destruction of Literature - by 4th Century christians, and if this will not suffice, have a little browse through some of the edicts of the christian emperors recorded in the Codex Theodosianus (313 to 453 CE).

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Clivedurdle · 03-21-2008, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Library of Alexandria

ancient library, Alexandria, Egypt

Main

the most famous library of classical antiquity. It formed part of the research institute at Alexandria in Egypt that is known as the Museum, or the Alexandrian Museum.
The Alexandrian library and museum were founded and maintained by the long succession of Ptolemies in Egypt from the beginning of the 3rd century BC. The library’s initial organization was the work of Demetrius of Phaleron, who was familiar with the achievements of the library at Athens. Both the museum and the library were organized in faculties, with a president-priest at the head and the salaries of the staff paid by the Egyptian king. A subsidiary “daughter library” was established about 235 BC by Ptolemy III (Euergetes) in the Temple of Serapis, the main museum and library being located in the palace precincts, in the district known as the Brucheium. It is not known how far the ideal of an international library—incorporating not only all Greek literature but also translations into Greek from the other languages of the Mediterranean, the Middle East, and India—was realized. It is certain that the library was in the main Greek; the only translation recorded was the Septuagint.
The library’s editorial program included the establishment of the Alexandrian canon of Greek poets, the division of works into “books” as they are now known (probably to suit the standard length of rolls), and the gradual introduction of systems of punctuation and accentuation. The compilation of a national bibliography was entrusted to Callimachus. Though now lost, it survived into the Byzantine period as a standard reference work of Greek literature. The museum and library survived for many centuries but were destroyed in the civil war that occurred under the Roman emperor Aurelian in the late 3rd century AD; the daughter library was destroyed by Christians in AD 391. In 2002 the Egyptian government inaugurated a new library, the Bibliotheca Alexandrina, near the site of the ancient institution.

http://www.britannica.com/bps/home#t...20Encyclopedia

Quote:

HypatiaEgyptian philosopher and mathematician

Main

born c. 370, Alexandria, Egypt died March 415, Alexandria

Egyptian Neoplatonist philosopher who was the first notable woman in mathematics.
The daughter of Theon, also a notable mathematician and philosopher, Hypatia became the recognized head of the Neoplatonist school of philosophy at Alexandria about 400, and her eloquence, modesty, and beauty, combined with her remarkable intellectual gifts, attracted a large number of pupils. Among them was Synesius of Cyrene, afterward bishop of Ptolemais (c. 410), several of whose letters to her are still extant.
Hypatia lectured on mathematics and on the philosophical teachings of two Neoplatonists: Plotinus (c. AD 205–270), the founder of Neoplatonism, and Iamblichus (c. AD 250–330), the founder of the Syrian branch of Neoplatonism. She symbolized learning and science, which at that time in Western history were largely identified with paganism. This left Hypatia in a precarious situation.
Theodosius I, Roman emperor in the East from 379 to 392 and then emperor in both the East and West until 395, initiated an official policy of intolerance to paganism and Arianism in 380. In 391, in reply to Theophilus, the bishop of Alexandria, he gave permission to destroy Egyptian religious institutions. Christian mobs obliged by destroying the Library of Alexandria, the Temple of Serapis, and other pagan monuments. Although legislation in 393 sought to curb violence, particularly the looting and destruction of Jewish synagogues, a renewal of disturbances occurred after the accession of Cyril to the patriarchate of Alexandria in 412. Tension culminated in the forced, albeit illegal, expulsion of Alexandrian Jews in 414 and the murder of Hypatia, the most prominent Alexandrian pagan, by a fanatical mob of Christians in 415. The departure soon afterward of many scholars marked the beginning of the decline of Alexandria as a major centre of ancient learning.

According to the Suda Lexicon, a 10th-century encyclopedia, Hypatia wrote commentaries on the Arithmetica of Diophantus of Alexandria, on the Conics of Apollonius of Perga, and on an astronomical canon (presumably Ptolemy’s Almagest). We have it on the authority of her father, Theon, that she revised Book III of his commentary on the Almagest. All of these works are lost, although some may survive as parts of the extant Arabic versions of the Arithmetica. The known titles of her works, combined with the letters of Synesius who consulted her about the construction of an astrolabe and a hydroscope (identified in the 17th century by Pierre de Fermat as a hydrometer), indicate that she devoted herself particularly to astronomy and mathematics. The existence of any strictly philosophical works by her is unknown. Indeed, her philosophy was more scholarly and scientific in its interest and less mystical and intransigently pagan than the Neoplatonism taught in other schools. Nevertheless, statements attributed to her, such as “Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all” and “To teach superstitions as truth is a most terrible thing,” must have incensed Cyril, who in turn incensed the mob.
Hypatia’s reputation as a learned and beautiful female philosopher, combined with the dramatic details of her grisly death, have inspired the imaginations of numerous writers, inspiring works such as Charles Kingsley’s novel Hypatia: New Foes with an Old Face (1852).

http://www.britannica.com/bps/home#t...20Encyclopedia

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Roger Pearse · 03-21-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

(Britannica articles)

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't take my information about antiquity from unreferenced assertions in general encylopedias.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Clivedurdle · 03-21-2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

(Britannica articles)

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't take my information about antiquity from unreferenced assertions in general encylopedias.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Except they are referenced!

http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac...s/Hypatia.html

http://cosmopolis.com/people/hypatia.html

For example

Quote:

* The Greek word is ostrakois, literally "oystershells," but the word was also applied to brick tiles used on the roofs of houses

Furiae · 03-21-2008, 10:48 AM

Quote:

the daughter library was destroyed by Christians in AD 391.

But even in that more restricted sense of the Serapium, which had held some part of the Alexandrian library's contents, it is not certain that any remnants of the library's books were destroyed.

It looks like the main evidence is this quote from Socrates Scholasticus, written around 440:

“At the solicitation of Theophilus, Bishop of Alexandria, the Emperor issued an order at this time for the demolition of the heathen temples in that city; commanding also that it should be put in execution under the direction of Theophilus. Seizing this opportunity, Theophilus exerted himself to the utmost to expose the pagan mysteries to contempt. And to begin with, he caused the Mithreum to be cleaned out, and exhibited to public view the tokens of its bloody mysteries. Then he destroyed the Serapeum, and the bloody rites of the Mithreum he publicly caricatured; the Serapeum also he showed full of extravagant superstitions, and he had the phalli of Priapus carried through the midst of the forum. Thus this disturbance having been terminated, the governor of Alexandria, and the commander-in-chief of the troops in Egypt, assisted Theophilus in demolishing the heathen temples."

Neither this quote, nor any other, give us any idea there were still books at that time in the Serapian, they mention other things being destroyed, but not books.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-21-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

For example

Quote:

* The Greek word is ostrakois, literally "oystershells," but the word was also applied to brick tiles used on the roofs of houses

It has no such literal meaning (even in the dative plural). Cf. LSJ:

Quote:

ὄστρᾰκον, τό, earthen vessel, Ar.Ra.1190, Ec.1033, Lys.3.28, 4.6; flower-pot, Thphr.HP6.7.3.

2. fragment of such a vessel, potsherd, IG42(1).121.82 (Epid., iv b.c., pl.), LxxPs.21.16, al., Ostr.1152, etc.; ἰπνοῦ ὄστρακα Hp.Morb.2.47; esp. the potsherd used in voting (v. ὀστρακίζω): hence τοὔστρακον παροίχεται the danger of ostracism is past, Cratin.71; τὰ ὄστρακα, = ὀστρακισμός, Pl.Com.187; τὸ ὄ. ἐπιφ�*ρειν τινί to vote for any one’s banishment, Plu.Alc.13, cf. Per.14.

3. ὀστράκου περιστροφή, of the game ὀστρακίνδα (q.v.), Pl.R.521c; so ὀστράκου μεταπεσόντος ‘if heads become tails’, Id.Phdr.241b.

4. earthenware castanet, ἡ τοῖς ὀ. κροτοῦσα [Μοῦσα], of the poetry of Euripides, Ar.Ra.1305.

II. the hard shell of snails, mussels, cuttle-fishes, tortoises, etc., h.Merc.33, S.Ichn.303 (dub.l.), Hp.Steril.245, Theoc.9.25, Arist.HA528a4, etc.: hence, tortoise-shell or mother-of-pearl, κλιντῆρες ὀστράκοις .. ἐνδεδεμ�*νοι prob. l. in Ph.1.666; the shell at the base of the constellation Lyra, Ptol.Alm.7.5.

2. egg-shell, ἀπτῆνα .., ἄρτι γυμνὸν ὀστράκων A.Fr.337, cf. Arist.GA754a2.

I really wish you'd stop telling us what Greek words mean. Like Pete, you lack even the most basic of the skills necessary to assess the validity of the claims you find in your "research" into various things, and you only end up embarrassing yourself -- and showing that you haven't a clue about what you are talking about --when you mistake bad material for good.

Jeffrey

Roger Pearse · 03-21-2008, 11:29 AM

[Deleted]

Clivedurdle · 03-21-2008, 12:01 PM

How is it dishonest to not repost a link that is a sub link from one I had just posted - and which I assume you found by following my link?

Are we meant to reference every word here? I only posted that in response to the earlier comment about how she was killed, there seems to be a dispute about tiles or shells!

I really do not understand what the problem is.

Hypatia was killed by xian mobs instigated by an Emperor. There is extreme doubt about whether Jews were also involved or were also the recipients of this mob violence.

A comment that Gibbon made all this up is explicitly contradicted by a "general encyclopedia."

There is an expression - seeing the wood for the trees. We need both - the detail and the overview.

Contexts here are very badly out of focus, I do not understand why you refuse to address that.

And where did these threats come from all of a sudden? What was that about turning the other cheek and leading people out of folly in gentleness?

MarkA · 03-21-2008, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Furiae

Quote:

the daughter library was destroyed by Christians in AD 391.

But even in that more restricted sense of the Serapium, which had held some part of the Alexandrian library's contents, it is not certain that any remnants of the library's books were destroyed.

It looks like the main evidence is this quote from Socrates Scholasticus, written around 440:

“At the solicitation of Theophilus, Bishop of Alexandria, the Emperor issued an order at this time for the demolition of the heathen temples in that city; commanding also that it should be put in execution under the direction of Theophilus. Seizing this opportunity, Theophilus exerted himself to the utmost to expose the pagan mysteries to contempt. And to begin with, he caused the Mithreum to be cleaned out, and exhibited to public view the tokens of its bloody mysteries. Then he destroyed the Serapeum, and the bloody rites of the Mithreum he publicly caricatured; the Serapeum also he showed full of extravagant superstitions, and he had the phalli of Priapus carried through the midst of the forum. Thus this disturbance having been terminated, the governor of Alexandria, and the commander-in-chief of the troops in Egypt, assisted Theophilus in demolishing the heathen temples."

Neither this quote, nor any other, give us any idea there were still books at that time in the Serapian, they mention other things being destroyed, but not books.

Bury in Vol I of his History of the Later Roman Empire, says in a footnote that the library of the Serapeum was destroyed by the christian mob on this occasion. Reasonably a library implies the building held books unless the author explicity says it does not. His source is Orosius, vi, 15. I do not have a copy of this work but I am sure somebody who has access to it could post the quote here to see what it specifically says.

Toto · 03-21-2008, 01:36 PM

Bury's History is public domain and is online:

Ch 11

Quote:

It remained for Theodosius to inflict a far heavier blow on the ancient cults of Greece and Rome. In the earlier years of his reign the extirpation of pagan worship does not seem to have been an aim of his policy. He was only concerned to enforce obedience to the laws prohibiting sacrifices, which had evidently been widely evaded. He decided on the closing of all sanctuaries in which the law had been broken. He entrusted to Cynegius, Praetorian Prefect of the East, a pious Christian, the congenial task of executing this order in Asia and Egypt. But otherwise temples were still legally open to worshippers.68 It is to be particularly noted that the Emperor did not desire to destroy but only to secularise such buildings as were condemned, and the cases of barbarous demolition of splendid buildings which occurred in these years were due to the fanatical zeal of monks and ecclesiastics. Monks wrought the destruction of the great temple of Edessa, and the Serapeum at Alexandria, which gave that city "the semblance of a sacred world,"⁶⁹ was demolished [p369] under the direction of the archbishop Theophilus (A.D. 389),⁷⁰ who thereby dealt an effective blow to the paganism of Alexandria.

* * *

⁷⁰ The account of Sozomen, VII.15, is better than that of Socrates, V.16, 17. See also Eunapius, ib. The pagans were not guiltless in this affair. They had attacked the Christians and fortified themselves in the buildings of the Serapeum; but they had been provoked to this outbreak by Theophilus, who had paraded religious symbols, taken from a temple of Dionysus (which the Emperor had permitted him to convert into a church), through the streets in derision of the pagan cults. The most unfortunate occurrence was the destruction of the library of the Serapeum (Orosius, VI.15).

Orosius is linked to here in Latin.

More on the Serapeum

Quote:

Gibbon, who otherwise presents such an evocative picture of the destruction of the Temple of Serapis, is mistaken when he says (XXVIII) that "The valuable library of Alexandria was pillaged or destroyed" by Theophilus, whom he characterizes as "the perpetual enemy of peace and virtue; a bold, bad man, whose hands were alternately polluted with gold, and with blood." That the temple did have a library is related by Ammianus, as well as by Epiphanius, who, writing in AD 392, speaks of a second library "in the Serapeum, called its daughter." But there is no support for the presumption that it was destroyed at the same time as the temple or even that it still existed by then. Writing c.AD 417, Orosius does say that "in some of the temples there remain up to the present time book chests, which we ourselves have seen, and that, as we are told, these were emptied by our own men in our own day when these temples were plundered." But the Serapeum was said to have been destroyed. Indeed, Eunapius, who died about AD 414, bitterly exclaims that, in demolishing the temple, the Christians stole statues and votive offerings. "Only the floor of the temple of Serapis they did not take, simply because of the weight of the stones which were not easy to remove from their place." The empty armaria seen by Orosius must therefore have been located somewhere else.

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03-21-2008, 11:29 AM	#17
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	[Deleted]

03-21-2008, 12:01 PM	#18
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	How is it dishonest to not repost a link that is a sub link from one I had just posted - and which I assume you found by following my link? Are we meant to reference every word here? I only posted that in response to the earlier comment about how she was killed, there seems to be a dispute about tiles or shells! I really do not understand what the problem is. Hypatia was killed by xian mobs instigated by an Emperor. There is extreme doubt about whether Jews were also involved or were also the recipients of this mob violence. A comment that Gibbon made all this up is explicitly contradicted by a "general encyclopedia." There is an expression - seeing the wood for the trees. We need both - the detail and the overview. Contexts here are very badly out of focus, I do not understand why you refuse to address that. And where did these threats come from all of a sudden? What was that about turning the other cheek and leading people out of folly in gentleness?

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