Freethought & Rationalism Archive

No Robots · 12-02-2007, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

I'll ask my question again, since your answer did not address it:

Where do you think it says that in relation to "prior to being used as a title"?

It says that the title was applied in the first century and that its use as a general term of respect predates that.

Sheshonq · 12-02-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

I'll ask my question again, since your answer did not address it:

Where do you think it says that in relation to "prior to being used as a title"?

It says that the title was applied in the first century and that its use as a general term of respect predates that.

It does not say that. If you think it does, cite it directly.

spin · 12-02-2007, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Shanks (1968) concludes:

Aside from the Gospels themselves, the use of the philological sibling Rabban among the Jews at the time of Jesus' ministry is the most significant datum available suggesting that the title Rabbi was also in use.

Scraping low, I see.

Shanks of course besides stating his unlearned opinion, does attempt to date the gospels for their historical evidence? Naturally no. Why not quote some other mercenary journalist? Or go for evidence.

spin

spin · 12-02-2007, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Btw, there is analysis of the epigraphic evidence for pre-Christian use of "rabbi" in Die urchristlichen Lehrer By Alfred F. Zimmermann. Additional discussion is found in the following:

"Is the Title "Rabbi" Anachronistic in the Gospels?" / Hershel Shanks. In The Jewish Quarterly Review, New Ser., Vol. 53, No. 4 (Apr., 1963), pp. 337-345.
"[Is the Title "Rabbi" Anachronistic in the Gospels?]: A Reply" / S. Z. In The Jewish Quarterly Review, New Ser., Vol. 53, No. 4 (Apr., 1963), pp. 345-349.
"The Title Rabbi in the Gospels: Some Reflections on the Evidence of the Synoptics" / James Donaldson. In The Jewish Quarterly Review, New Ser., Vol. 63, No. 4 (Apr., 1973), pp. 287-291.
"Epigraphical Rabbis" / Shaye J. D. Cohen. In The Jewish Quarterly Review, New Ser., Vol. 72, No. 1 (Jul., 1981), pp. 1-17.

Each of which I have on my hard drive and can make available in PDF to anyone who asks to see them.

Given that Zeitlin adequately deals with Shanks and the other two are irrelevant, have you got any that actually help us on the subject of rabbis at the time of Jesus?

spin

No Robots · 12-03-2007, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Given that Zeitlin adequately deals with Shanks and the other two are irrelevant, have you got any that actually help us on the subject of rabbis at the time of Jesus?

Shanks and Zeitlin reprised their debate in 1968:

"Origins of the Title 'Rabbi'," / Hershel Shanks. In The Jewish Quarterly Review, New Ser., Vol. 59, No. 2 (Oct., 1968), pp. 152-157.

"The Title Rabbi in the Gospels Is Anachronistic," / S. Zeitlin. The Jewish Quarterly Review, New Ser., Vol. 59, No. 2 (Oct., 1968), pp. 158-160.

Given that Zeitlin concentrates only on the usage of "rabbi" as a title, and not as a term of respect, it cannot be maintained that he "adequately deals with Shanks."

No Robots · 12-03-2007, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

It does not say that. If you think it does, cite it directly.

In the Palestinian schools the sages were addressed as "Rabbi" (my master). This term of respectful address gradually came to be used as a title.... The title 'Rabbi,' too, came into vogue among those who received the laying on of hands at this period, as, for instance, Rabbi Zadok, Rabbi Eliezer ben Jacob, and others, and dates from the time of the disciples of Rabban Johanan ben Zakkai downward.--"Rabbi," Jewish Encyclopedia

Emphasis added. So we see that the title 'Rabbi' came into vogue in the first century after it had been used as a term of respectful address.

Toto · 12-03-2007, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

It does not say that. If you think it does, cite it directly.

In the Palestinian schools the sages were addressed as "Rabbi" (my master). This term of respectful address gradually came to be used as a title.... The title 'Rabbi,' too, came into vogue among those who received the laying on of hands at this period, as, for instance, Rabbi Zadok, Rabbi Eliezer ben Jacob, and others, and dates from the time of the disciples of Rabban Johanan ben Zakkai downward.--"Rabbi," Jewish Encyclopedia

Emphasis added. So we see that the title 'Rabbi' came into vogue in the first century after it had been used as a term of respectful address.

From your source:

"Rabbi" in the Gospels.

Sherira's statement shows clearly that at the time of Jesus there were no titles; and Grätz ("Gesch." iv. 431), therefore, regards as anachronisms the title "Rabbi" as given in the gospels to John the Baptist and Jesus, Jesus' disapprobation of the ambition of the Jewish doctors who love to be called by this title, and his admonition to his disciples not to suffer themselves to be so styled (Matt. xxiii. 7, 8).

No Robots · 12-03-2007, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Sherira's statement shows clearly that at the time of Jesus there were no titles; and Grätz ("Gesch." iv. 431), therefore, regards as anachronisms the title "Rabbi" as given in the gospels to John the Baptist and Jesus, Jesus' disapprobation of the ambition of the Jewish doctors who love to be called by this title, and his admonition to his disciples not to suffer themselves to be so styled (Matt. xxiii. 7, 8).

The word "rabbi" was in use as an epithet of respect before it was used as a title.

Solitary Man · 12-03-2007, 12:07 PM

Isn't that his point? If it was used as a title, then it's anachronistic. But if it's used as a term of respect, than it's not. I think professor worked in the same way.

Sheshonq · 12-03-2007, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

It does not say that. If you think it does, cite it directly.

In the Palestinian schools the sages were addressed as "Rabbi" (my master). This term of respectful address gradually came to be used as a title.... The title 'Rabbi,' too, came into vogue among those who received the laying on of hands at this period, as, for instance, Rabbi Zadok, Rabbi Eliezer ben Jacob, and others, and dates from the time of the disciples of Rabban Johanan ben Zakkai downward.--"Rabbi," Jewish Encyclopedia

Emphasis added. So we see that the title 'Rabbi' came into vogue in the first century after it had been used as a term of respectful address.

The first part (in red, above) is from the introductory first sentences to the Jewish Encyclopedia entry on "rabbi". It does not give a 1st century timeframe for this usage. In fact, that part of the article clearly states:

The more ancient generations, however, which were far superior, had no such titles as 'Rabban,' 'Rabbi,' or 'Rab,' for either the Babylonian or Palestinian sages. This is evident from the fact that Hillel I., who came from Babylon, had not the title 'Rabban' prefixed to his name.

The "respectful address" refers to the first usage of Zakkai's students. THe title didn't come until later (read the part about the Sanhedrin ordaining scholars with this title).

The second part you quoted (in blue, above) comes far later in the article, in the same section that discusses Zakkai who - as I noted earlier -- was the first person to be called by this title but unfortunately comes too late for the timeframe you need.

Splicing together two unrelated parts of the article in an attempt to prove your point is utterly dishonest.

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12-03-2007, 12:07 PM	#49
Solitary Man Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: ירושלים Posts: 1,701	Isn't that his point? If it was used as a title, then it's anachronistic. But if it's used as a term of respect, than it's not. I think professor worked in the same way.

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