Johnny Skeptic

I look forward to reading replies from readers.

Peter Kirby

No.

Amaleq13

Doubling down on the negative.

andrewcriddle

Strictly speaking the answer is no.

With respect to the broader question as to whether any pagan writers accept that Jesus performed putative miracles the answer would seem to be yes.

Celsus (c 180 CE) as quoted by Origen attributed Jesus's supposed miracles to Sorcery and Black Magic. Which in effect involves accepting that Jesus carried out putative miracles.

Andrew Criddle

triffidfood

Conversely, Eusebius (who never made anything up ) also apparently accepted that the 'Pagan' Apollonius of Tyana existed, and that he performed numerous miracles, but also attributed these to demons or to trickery [See for instance http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ier/kooks.html ].

Personally, I suspect both (the supposed miracles of Christ and the supposed miracles of Apollonius) are just as false. But, 1900-2000 years after the event(s), how can you really prove anything like this either way (in any sense conclusively)? So, who knows ... :huh:

Nuwanda

This is an interesting question. I searched around and found that in 52 AD a secular historian named Thallus is quoted as giving reference to the darkening of the sun immediately following the death of Christ as being an eclipse of the sun. Similarly, another early 1st century writer named Phlegon wrote a history called "Chronicles" which states, "During the time of Tiberius Ceasar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon" (J. Africanus). Science disproves that there was a solar eclipse at this place and time in history. There was, of course, Flavius Josephus, Jewish/Roman historian who wrote soon after Christ saying, "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure..." (Jewish Antiquities).

Julian

You should have kept searching. Maybe you would have found this: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...r/thallus.html
And this last sentence doesn't impart significant weight in some fashion?
That is all highly questionable. He probably didn't say this. There are several threads on this, current and available through a search.

Julian

Peter Kirby

I should add,

We don't have Roman records themselves, apart from some inscriptions and Egyptian papyri.

So my statement can only be true of that which we possess, which is a small fraction of what existed, and which does not at all cover the time and place of interest.

regards,
Peter Kirby

Nuwanda

No, actually that was the point. It was impossible, scientifically, for a "solar eclipse" to have happened when these records say it did, therefore it would be a miracle if it did happen.

I see the problem in using a historian, any historian, for argument sakes. All the opposition must do is cast doubt on the authenticity of the author and presto, argument over. Would you be willing to cast doubt on all ancient history? as it would be necessary in order for you to be consistent with your criticism.

If you consider this unfair, which ancient historians do you find to be indisputable?

Weltall

You're completely ignoring the fact that we have records written by people who would have noticed this eclipse and didn't mention it for some strange reason. When you can find a reliable source that claims it did occur, let us know. 'It couldn't have happened therefore it must have been a miracle if it happened therefore a miracle happened, TGE' isn't a particularly impressive argument.