Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IamJoseph · 07-31-2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susan2

However, I would point out that while the violence within Islam is very open and public, that same violence has been imposed on women and children throughout the Pope's Christendom, through the churches teachings and scriptures, privately, for more then 2,000 years, and was even supported by Judaism in their scriptures as well..

I don't think so. Judaism introduced women's rights laws mandated in its scriptures, and had numerous female Prophetessess and Judges since ancient times. Drawing an equivalence with European Christianity and Islam concerning women's rights is totally absurd.

IamJoseph · 07-31-2009, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susan2

Quote:

Um, you just defended Islam, so eager were you to attack Christianity.

I don't need to attack Christianity, I just needed to understand what it is. Now I understand, from there I can make choices. Women have the right to make choices too, wouldn't you agree.

I understand that Christians would like to make a distinction between Christianity and Islam, but still others can't find the distinction because it is hidden subtle. Iow's the Koran is bold in both it's assement and punishment of women, whereas Christianity is bold, it's suggestions of punishment are subtle. That it is subtle hasn't prevented men from acting it out.

It seems to me that you are making a disticntion in regards to pain, but pain is pain. While the medical community gives us a scale of 1-10 to describe our pain, the truth is that someone who experiences pain as a 10, can just as truly be experienced by another as any number in the scale.

You are attempting to portray the pain that Christianity has inflicted on the masses as 2, in comparison to your opinion as to the pain Islam inflicts as a 10.

I am here to tell you that the pain Christianty inflicted on many is a 10. I understand the need to deny that. One would need to take a second look at those scriptures, the religion, and make choices.

While men were given the freedom to make those choices for the past 2,000 years, you will have to excuse me for just catching up.

Better late then never?

A woman has the right to agree or disagree who she marrys [sp: Rebecca and Isaac].

A woman has the right to inheritance [sp. Moses and the four sisters].

No laws can be mandated without the approval of the women [sp. Moses first had to ask the women before the men concerning a covenant in accepting the Torah].

Legitimacy of offspring is fully dependent on proof of the mother - not the father.

Women have the highest spiritual status, and is the final act of creation.

Women can see further than man of the future. Even the greatest Prophets were told to harken to their wives [sp. Rebecca prevailed over Isaac; Sarah prevailed over Abraham]:

'WHATEVER SARAH TELLS YOU TO DO - DO IT' [Commanded to the Prophet Abraham/Genesis].

Zeluvia · 07-31-2009, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susan2

I don't need to attack Christianity, I just needed to understand what it is. Now I understand, from there I can make choices. Women have the right to make choices too, wouldn't you agree.

I understand that Christians would like to make a distinction between Christianity and Islam, but still others can't find the distinction because it is hidden subtle. Iow's the Koran is bold in both it's assement and punishment of women, whereas Christianity is bold, it's suggestions of punishment are subtle. That it is subtle hasn't prevented men from acting it out.

It seems to me that you are making a disticntion in regards to pain, but pain is pain. While the medical community gives us a scale of 1-10 to describe our pain, the truth is that someone who experiences pain as a 10, can just as truly be experienced by another as any number in the scale.

You are attempting to portray the pain that Christianity has inflicted on the masses as 2, in comparison to your opinion as to the pain Islam inflicts as a 10.

I am here to tell you that the pain Christianty inflicted on many is a 10. I understand the need to deny that. One would need to take a second look at those scriptures, the religion, and make choices.

While men were given the freedom to make those choices for the past 2,000 years, you will have to excuse me for just catching up.

Better late then never?

A woman has the right to agree or disagree who she marrys [sp: Rebecca and Isaac].

A woman has the right to inheritance [sp. Moses and the four sisters].

No laws can be mandated without the approval of the women [sp. Moses first had to ask the women before the men concerning a covenant in accepting the Torah].

Legitimacy of offspring is fully dependent on proof of the mother - not the father.

Women have the highest spiritual status, and is the final act of creation.

Women can see further than man of the future. Even the greatest Prophets were told to harken to their wives [sp. Rebecca prevailed over Isaac; Sarah prevailed over Abraham]:

'WHATEVER SARAH TELLS YOU TO DO - DO IT' [Commanded to the Prophet Abraham/Genesis].

Yeah, too bad they made El divorce Asherah and then decided to follow their son Yahweh and switch to a male dominated monotheism.

It's been all downhill since then.

But I would like some support for your statement on legitimacy, and for no laws being made without the consent of women.

IamJoseph · 07-31-2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeluvia

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

A woman has the right to agree or disagree who she marrys [sp: Rebecca and Isaac].

A woman has the right to inheritance [sp. Moses and the four sisters].

No laws can be mandated without the approval of the women [sp. Moses first had to ask the women before the men concerning a covenant in accepting the Torah].

Legitimacy of offspring is fully dependent on proof of the mother - not the father.

Women have the highest spiritual status, and is the final act of creation.

Women can see further than man of the future. Even the greatest Prophets were told to harken to their wives [sp. Rebecca prevailed over Isaac; Sarah prevailed over Abraham]:

'WHATEVER SARAH TELLS YOU TO DO - DO IT' [Commanded to the Prophet Abraham/Genesis].

Yeah, too bad they made El divorce Asherah and then decided to follow their son Yahweh.

El = sir, and predates Judaism. No Asherah exists.

Quote:

It's been all downhill since then.

Meanwhile the world's most cherished real estate is back with its owners, and Rome is no more. Downhill? - or down raging mad Europeans and Arabs coveting what is not theirs? Jerusalem is a Hebrew city - a tota truth known best by Christians and Muslims.

THOU SHALL NOT STEAL.

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FASE WITNESS.

THOU SHALL NOT COVET ANYTHING WHICH IS NOT YOURS.

IamJoseph · 07-31-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeluvia

But I would like some support for your statement on legitimacy, and for no laws being made without the consent of women.

These were listed. One must know the texts they question.

Zeluvia · 08-01-2009, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeluvia

Yeah, too bad they made El divorce Asherah and then decided to follow their son Yahweh.

El = sir, and predates Judaism. No Asherah exists.

Quote:

It's been all downhill since then.

Meanwhile the world's most cherished real estate is back with its owners, and Rome is no more. Downhill? - or down raging mad Europeans and Arabs coveting what is not theirs? Jerusalem is a Hebrew city - a tota truth known best by Christians and Muslims.

THOU SHALL NOT STEAL.

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FASE WITNESS.

THOU SHALL NOT COVET ANYTHING WHICH IS NOT YOURS.

http://www.digento.de/titel/105168.html

Well my brief reading of the Ugarit texts tells me that El, Baal, Yahweh and Asherath shared the same panthenon in Caanan.

Zeluvia · 08-01-2009, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeluvia

But I would like some support for your statement on legitimacy, and for no laws being made without the consent of women.

These were listed. One must know the texts they question.

Yes, that is what I would like to know. What are the texts?

Links will do just fine.

rcscwc · 09-20-2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susan2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

The difficulty about hating Christianity is that you end up doing things like defending Islam. Think about it.

St. Tertullian (about 155 to 225 CE)

“Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil’s gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die”.

St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430 CE) He wrote to a friend:

“What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman.....I fail to see what use woman can be to a man, if one excludes the function of bearing children”

St. Thomas Aquinas (1225 - 1274 CE)

“As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence.”

Martin Luther 91483 - 1546 CE)

“If they (women) become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that’s why they are there.”

ushanAH veda yachChAstraM yachcha veda bRuhaspatiH |
svabhAvenaiva tachChAstraM strIbuddhau supratiShThitam ||
A woman is created by Brahma so that she is endowed naturally with the knowledge of all the Shastras and Vidyas--all those learnt by ShukrAchArya, the guru of Asuras and BRuhaspati, the guru of Devendran and all those 33 crores of Devas.

credoconsolans · 09-20-2009, 07:18 PM

Just a few questions about the below

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

A woman has the right to agree or disagree who she marrys [sp: Rebecca and Isaac].

But didn't Moses have a heckuva time getting the right bride to the altar? Don't recall Rachel stepping up and telling her father to get lost.

Plus most cultures get around this by marrying their daughters young, before they even know they have a choice and are able to stand up to their menfolk.

Quote:

A woman has the right to inheritance [sp. Moses and the four sisters].

Yet, they didn't have to enforce this. See Tamar, widow of Er, who as widow of the first born son was entitled to be married to the next son in line and have a child that would inherit his father's place and material goods. But not if Er's brother Onan had anything to say (or do) about it...

Quote:

No laws can be mandated without the approval of the women [sp. Moses first had to ask the women before the men concerning a covenant in accepting the Torah].

You mean, a true law? As opposed to daily decisions that went on in everyday life? I mean, I see the ancient king patriarchs David, Solomon, etc., making judgements and decisions all the time without asking their womenfolk anything. Solomon even tells a foreign queen (Sheba) what do with the child he impregnates her with and expects her to do it.

Quote:

Women have the highest spiritual status, and is the final act of creation.

Women can see further than man of the future. Even the greatest Prophets were told to harken to their wives [sp. Rebecca prevailed over Isaac; Sarah prevailed over Abraham]

But wasn't Miriam, sister of Moses known as a prophetess struck with a disfiguring and ritually soiling punishment because she and Aaron questioned Moses' marriage to a Cushite woman? (Yet only she was punished by god because supposedly Aaron had important religious work to do and couldn't do it if he were also punished).

bacht · 09-21-2009, 07:16 AM

For some reason the typical feminist critique of ancient society ignores social class (hard to understand from daughters of Marx). Yes the average woman had a hard life in ancient times, but the average man (peasant, artisan) didn't do much better. Only the wealthy elite could enjoy relative freedom and luxury, both men and women. I haven't seen any numbers but I suspect the vast majority of slaves doing hard manual labour were males, as were all soldiers and sailors.

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09-21-2009, 07:16 AM	#20
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	For some reason the typical feminist critique of ancient society ignores social class (hard to understand from daughters of Marx). Yes the average woman had a hard life in ancient times, but the average man (peasant, artisan) didn't do much better. Only the wealthy elite could enjoy relative freedom and luxury, both men and women. I haven't seen any numbers but I suspect the vast majority of slaves doing hard manual labour were males, as were all soldiers and sailors.

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