Susan2

This is very interesting, thank you.

However, I would point out that while the violence within Islam is very open and public, that same violence has been imposed on women and children throughout the Pope's Christendom, through the churches teachings and scriptures, privately, for more then 2,000 years, and was even supported by Judaism in their scriptures as well.

I understand such concepts as cause and effect, natural consequesnce as being a part of life. It is what it is. If I am playing baseball and I break a window I must pay for the window. I didn't purposefully break the window.

If I am driving drunk, and I kill someone, I deserve to suffer the consequences of the law. These are rational endeavors toward societal well being.

If I am slicing tomatoe's I might slip and cut my finger.

I am not talking about natural consequences, but deliverate suffering caused by the church, it's doctrines, and scriptures; The AIDS epidemic in Africa, the churches refusal to allow the use of condoms. One might say, well let them use them anyway, but is that possible in an uneducated population that suffers from sever shame, coupled with a religion that continually reinforces shame?

Innocent children are born with AIDS. Is the church willing to be responsible for their part in the deaths, and needless suffering of those children?

The Pope should focus on the churches contribution of violence against mankind, then maybe the Muslims wouldn't be so outraged.

Back Again

Indeed he should

Yeah right. For those that want to be outraged, there will always be something.

Roger Pearse

The difficulty about hating Christianity is that you end up doing things like defending Islam. Think about it.

Susan2

The catholic church demanded that a 9 yo Catholic, Brazillian child, who was raped and impregnated by her father, carry to full term, against the governments and mothers decision to abort the fetus. This has nothing to do with God, but their doctrine of faith, martyrdom, suffering, punishment.

The church believes that mankind is inherently sinful, including this little girl. They have very Buddhist like philosophies, similar to karma. I presume that not unlike Buddhists, she reaped what she sowed, either in this life or a past life. The church's philosophies are not about some supreme being of kindness, love and compassion, but rather, retribution. It is in their scriptures, it is in their doctrines.

Had the child carried the fetus, her womb would have possibly ripped and she would have bled to death. Other complication could have, and more likely then not would have, cost the child her life as well.

I was outraged, knowing that there will be other little girls who find themselves in the same perdicament, and there might not be someone there to help them, due to their fears of the church, God, hell.

Are you suggesting that I was looking to be outraged? Should I just shrug my shoulders, and say no big deal, experience no feelings, suppress them, let the world continue as it has for thousands of years. Dehumanize myself.

Let nothing change. Let there be no peace. Let there be no hope.

That is the motto of the three major religions, as is evidenced not just by their scriptures, but their histories.

xaxxat

I thought about.

And... you're wrong...

Susan2

Interesting observation, but could that be misconstrued as fear mongering?

I see it a little differently: as long as a secular, or theocratic government continues to fail it’s constituency, in conjunction with a religion that fails it’s parishioners, a stalemate occurs. It is this stalemate that creates the glass ceiling. The have’s and the have not’s.

It seems to me that it is not government, nor religions that make a difference in the world, and never has been, but that it is individuals, for the betterment, or the worse of others.

“I have the muster seed and I am not afraid of using it.” - Pope Benedict.


Apparently he does.


St. Tertullian (about 155 to 225 CE)

“Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil’s gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die”.

St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430 CE) He wrote to a friend:

“What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we ust beware of in any woman.....I fail to see what use woman can be to a man, if one excludes the function of bearing children”

St. Thomas Aquinas (1225 - 1274 CE)

“As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence.”

Martin Luther 91483 - 1546 CE)

“If they (women) become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that’s why they are there.”

Roger Pearse

Um, you just defended Islam, so eager were you to attack Christianity. And in view of the stuff you pasted below it, this seems like an extraordinary thing to do. Don't you know what happens to women under Islam?

I was translating one of the Coptic apocalypses -- maybe it was the Apocalypse of Simeon of Kalamoun -- and this was composed in the 12th century (-ish). It laments the destruction of coptic culture, and the way that copts tended to adopt Islam because of the free and easy attitude to marriage, marrying 4 times, and instant divorce. It was simply easier to get laid if you were a Moslem.

What follows seems to have no connection to the thread, or indeed your own post. A couple of brief comments.

Agree with you there. Too many oppressors like to hide behind abstractions.

Have you ever looked at anti-semitic literature? If so, you will know that it often consists of lists of "quotes" to show that Jews confess to being bastards, or otherwise violate societal norms. Indeed every form of hate literature does this trick. The "quotes", needless to say, tend to be very mangled, and never checked by those quoting them. This collection is a piece of hate-literature.

Evidence? Well, you might start with this one. Find the reference. Find out when Tertullian became a saint. Find out what Marie Turcan says about it, in Etre femme selon Tertullien, which I have translated and placed online. To put it mildly, it doesn't say what you think.

I wonder how many of these are accurate.

But I think what this list is saying, silently, is that, if all these were true, not everyone in the world has always shared the views of late 20th century American political correctness. Well, I think I knew this!

And as an atheist, are you quite sure that you want to make the position that we should all conform to what the powerful want us to believe? Really sure? For an atheist, such a position seems suicidal to me.

And has no possible relevance to the Dialogue of Manuel Paleologus.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Susan2

I don't need to attack Christianity, I just needed to understand what it is. Now I understand, from there I can make choices. Women have the right to make choices too, wouldn't you agree.

I understand that Christians would like to make a distinction between Christianity and Islam, but still others can't find the distinction because it is hidden subtle. Iow's the Koran is bold in both it's assement and punishment of women, whereas Christianity is bold, it's suggestions of punishment are subtle. That it is subtle hasn't prevented men from acting it out.

It seems to me that you are making a disticntion in regards to pain, but pain is pain. While the medical community gives us a scale of 1-10 to describe our pain, the truth is that someone who experiences pain as a 10, can just as truly be experienced by another as any number in the scale.

You are attempting to portray the pain that Christianity has inflicted on the masses as 2, in comparison to your opinion as to the pain Islam inflicts as a 10.

I am here to tell you that the pain Christianty inflicted on many is a 10. I understand the need to deny that. One would need to take a second look at those scriptures, the religion, and make choices.

While men were given the freedom to make those choices for the past 2,000 years, you will have to excuse me for just catching up.

Better late then never?

Roger Pearse

Especially not in a thread about something else...

If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Toto

Susan's list of quotes seems to be from ReligiousTolerance. There are footnotes at that link.

Shall I split this off?