muTron the homeless

Hello,

I'm plodding my way through an Intro to NT by Bart Erhman and he had a brief discussion about the differences of magic and religion in the ancient world. Both seem to involve the use of prayers or incantations uttered and / or rituals performed in order to alter the actions of a higher power for the benefit of society or an individual. He seemed to sum it up to the following difference:

Religion is accepted by society or at least the elites. :angel:
Magic is generally the underbelly of religion and is usually not as accepted. :devil3:

Seems a neat anthropological answer but I am still a little confused on the actual differences between magic and religion besides this if any....and where do the mystery cults fall in the above distinctions?

Any thoughts or further sources I can explore?


Sorry if this has been discussed before...I did a thread search but came up with mostly Wiccan stuff.

Thanks,
M

Vorkosigan

Nuesner, J., Frerichs, E.S., and Flesher, P.V.M., eds. 1989. Religion, Science, and Magic: In Concert and Conflict. New York: Oxford University Press. pp142-165.

Also, a great place to get a hands on feel is the website of the Kelsey Museum at the U of Mich, which has an absolutely fascinating collection of magic amulets and other magic artifacts from centuries ago.

Traditions of Magic in Ancient Antiquity
http://www.lib.umich.edu/pap/magic/def1.display

Diogenes the Cynic

I think that "magic" tends to be more specifically directed at a particular individual or goal while "religion" is more generalized, less specific and more authoritative.

The authority of the client plays into this as well. With "magic," a specific individual is attempting to control or influence some higher power for his own purposes. In religion. the client is submitting to the power. If the client is in charge, it's magic. If the magic is in charge, it's religion.

andrewcriddle

The distinction between magic and religion is highly controversial in modern scholarship.

One standard distinction is that religion is about forming more or less personal relationships with spiritual beings, and magic is about the manipulation of spiritual power.


There are interesting discussions (from different perspectives in Meier 'A Marginal Jew' Volume 2 chapter 18 'Miracles and Ancient Minds' and Ronald Hutton 'Witches Druids and King Arthur' chapter 4 'The New Old Paganism'. Hutton is prticularly interested in the problems involved in using this distinction in late paganism.

As to the mystery cults I would say that they are as such clearly religion not magic, however the Greek magical papyri of the early Christian centuries are a difficult borderline case and in many cases these do appear to have been heavily influenced by the mystery cults. See for example the so-called Mithras liturgy in the magical papyri.

(Frazer in 'The Golden Bough' has a long discussion of the relation of magic and religion but this is obviously outdated.)

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle

I do not think there is in reality much if any distinction, I might allow for evolutionary and breeding differences, for example say between a wolf and a poodle, but in reality they are the same thing, except religion seems to prefer urban ecosystems, is far more formalised and has clear heirarchies. The confusions here are illustrated by some people calling animism a religion.

(I have not said religions are beautiful or more evolved or better!)

Daisy

Magic is the specific act or ritual performed for an immediate result. Magic may be part of a religious ritual or it may stand on its own.

Religion is the philosophical belief system that may or may not incorporate magic into its rituals.

Clivedurdle

Proves my point! Anyone doing magic also has a philosophy, it might not be as posh as a religions, and as middle class in deferring gratification to heaven! Believe on the Blood of the Lamb or the Name of Jesus sounds pretty magical! Just because it doesn't have a holy book and loads of workers propagating the ideas doesn't mean it ain't a religion, and conversely, religion is only magic with more abracadabras!

andrewcriddle

Some modern scholars are very dubious about whether religion and magic can be genuinely distinguished.

However most scholars find in practice that including everything from say charms for healing warts to scholastic theology in the same broad category is not particularly useful.

There is also a problem that a very broad category of (religion+magic) tends to be used polemically as equivalent to the sum of the false/irrational beliefs held in a particular society or culture. If one wishes to try and avoid strongly evaluative terms when describing a culture or society then lumping together indiscriminately magic and religion is probably a mistake.

Andrew Criddle

Daisy

I don't think so. Wishing on a star, for instance, while chanting the little rhyme, "Star light, star bright..." is magic, however ineffective, without a philosophy.

Although there may have been some philosophy connected with it in the past, the wisher-chanter is generally unaware of it.

Clivedurdle

But if we look at in terms of behaviours, there is not that much difference. Religion and magic look very different, in the same ways a wolf and a poodle are different, but they are really in the same group of "interesting things humans do".

King James of KJV spent an awful lot of time "healing'" people by laying on of hands (from Fraser!)

I'm in "wanting a paradigm shift mode" tonight!

I think a classification shake up is needed in social studies - for example the distinctions between sociology and social anthropology are really traceable back to false distinctions between civil and not civil (Barbarian). Distinctions between religion and magic are very unclear - technically I was brought up in a cult - Assemblies of God Pentecostalism - but that is now seen as a reasonably mainstream religion, whereas scientology is not. Are Stage Magicians really practising Magic? My AOG upbringing was very much about direct pleas for things! (In Jesus Name!)