Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ralfellis · 03-18-2013, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

That is why I noted the word for "draw" or I suppose we might say withdraw. That means with a cup or bucket. No pouring involved here. If the author had meant what you are suggesting, then he would have said something like "and when the servers poured (from a pitcher) into the guests cups, wine came out. You'll notice that the author doesn't have Jesus even so much as touch the Jugs or pitchers.

Ok, so if you want to stick more closely to the gospel story, if you think it is soo acurate (I am surprised you think it quite so accurate), then why not try this water-to-wine vessel (pithoi):

http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasPro...section59.html

Or how about these?

http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasPro...section23.html
http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasPro...section24.html
http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasPro...section39.html

Since Hero of Alexandria made a dozen different variations of this trick, there are many types you can choose from.

.

jakejonesiv · 03-18-2013, 06:44 PM

Quote:

.
Water to Wine was a trick jug.

I think everyone is familiar with the 'water to wine' miracle, which is a central Catholic 'proof' that Jesus was divine. But strangely enough, we also know that this famous event was a trick, rather than a miracle. Indeed, we even know who made this trick jug, and we have the original 1st century design too. It was a trick jug made by Hero of Alexandria, the 1st century's Leonardo da Vinci:

It is an allusion of Jesus to another mystery god, in this case Dionysus, who was known for turning water into wine. The Bachaee by Euripedes

“One took a thyrsus and beat against a rock,
and from it sprang the dewy wet of water; 705
another sank her wand into the soil,
and there the god sent up a fount of wine;”

DCHindley · 03-18-2013, 07:10 PM

No,

I said "the author of the Gospel of John" not "the holy gospel of Saint John the Divine." Just because containers able to dispense water and/or wine by manipulating vent holes existed, does not mean they were used in Cana, if the event really happened. All the devices utilize pneumatics, and say that certain parts need to be soldered in place, suggesting metal containers.

All the contrivances that Heron related (some, or a large number of them, were inventions of earlier engineers), may never have been actually made, as was the case with drawings that Leonardo daVinci made of helicopters and such.

If Jesus himself were portrayed as filling a pitcher with water and pouring out wine, I would give your suggestion more credence.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralfellis

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

That is why I noted the word for "draw" or I suppose we might say withdraw. That means with a cup or bucket. No pouring involved here. If the author had meant what you are suggesting, then he would have said something like "and when the servers poured (from a pitcher) into the guests cups, wine came out. You'll notice that the author doesn't have Jesus even so much as touch the Jugs or pitchers.

Ok, so if you want to stick more closely to the gospel story, if you think it is soo acurate (I am surprised you think it quite so accurate), then why not try this water-to-wine vessel (pithoi): ...

Since Hero of Alexandria made a dozen different variations of this trick, there are many types you can choose from.

Cheerful Charlie · 03-18-2013, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralfellis

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

As the Cana wedding account in Gospel of John goes, the miracle occurred in water containers holding 2 or 3 "metrētas" (μετρητὰς) each.

As for its usefulness as a prank trick, it is only funny to the trickee and the other guests once, and only if they have not encountered such a dispenser beforehand.
.

Come come, now, you are presupposing that the gospel author actually saw the trick in action. If he was writing from reports he had heard, he may well have written it as we find it.

As to the usefulness of the trick, I am sorry, but I tune into modern magicians on the TV time after time. Because even if I know they are tricks, I am continually fascinated by how they are done.

And as far as Hero's trick jugs go, this is a particularly difficult trick to solve, as it depends solely on a the magician (Jesus) simply relaxing his thumb pressure on the secret vacuum tube in the handle. Even if you guess that the jug must have internal divisions, you cannot see any movement by the magician - no latches or levers, nothing. To be honest, most people could see this trick ten times, and still be amazed by it.

.

I doubt it had much to do with magic trick jugs. It was just a pagan myth adapted. Bacchus and his followers turned water into wine. so diid Dionysius' maeneads. And in Vergil's Aeniad there were three sisters, half goddesses, daughters of Apollo and a human mother who could do such tricks. One turned water into wine, one weeds into wheat, another berries into olives. Surely Jesus could do as much.

Cheerful Charlie

Sheshbazzar · 03-18-2013, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralfellis

Water to Wine was a trick jug.

I think everyone is familiar with the 'water to wine' miracle, which is a central Catholic 'proof' that Jesus was divine. But strangely enough, we also know that this famous event was a trick, rather than a miracle. Indeed, we even know who made this trick jug, and we have the original 1st century design too. It was a trick jug made by Hero of Alexandria ...

As Hero of Alexandria himself said of this trick:

"We may also pour in the water first, and then, stopping the vent, pour wine upon it, so as to pour out wine for some, wine and water for others, and mere water for those whom we wish to jest with."

Ralph,

As the Cana wedding account in Gospel of John goes, the miracle occurred in water containers holding 2 or 3 "metrētas" (μετρητὰς) each. A metrētas holds about 39 litres (a little over 10 US gallons or 8.6 UK gallons) Each US gallon weighs approximately 8 lbs (UK gallons 10 pounds), so there was at least 180 lbs of water/wine plus the weight of the stone jug. As it is "drawn out" (ἀντλήσατε, to bale bilge water, draw up water, use to the last) per vs 8, and not poured out (ἐπιχέω, καταχέω or ἔβαλω).

The tale seems to have underwent the old 'fish tale' phenomenon, the one where it gets bigger and better with every telling.

Could well enough have started out with a writers awareness of Hero's trick decanter (he wouldn't have even had to know how it worked) but his god being bigger and more powerful could do the same trick only in larger measure. Maybe it was a latter redactor that gave us the tale's big stone waterpots.

Can't trust any situation presented within these Gospel stories as being accurate factual accounting's of real events.

Where or how does one draw the line between reality and fabrications in the greatest 'Fish Tale' ever told?

outhouse · 03-18-2013, 10:31 PM

I have to agree with many here. This was nothing more then the Hellenistic authors attributing Hellenistic tricks of the time to build divnity on a man they never knew.

I dont think in reality, even if a HJ existed, that he ever did this event and it is 100% mythology added to a real mans legend.

mountainman · 03-18-2013, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralfellis

.

So there we have it. It is more than likely that one of the central proofs of Jesus' divinity was based upon a 1st century party trick.

Well the stories do report that Jesus liked to hang out in bars after work, and mingle with Mary and the girls while imbibing wine. Just the place for such a party trick.

Quote:

And again, I should point out that I am an Atheist searching for the historical truth, and not a believer shoring up a tottering belief system.

Welcome to the investigation.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

ralfellis · 03-19-2013, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

No,

If Jesus himself were portrayed as filling a pitcher with water and pouring out wine, I would give your suggestion more credence.

DCH

But the water-to-wine miracle is one of the defining actions of Jesus that 'proves' he was semi-divine. It was HIS trick.

Or are you saying that the Catholic Church has got it all wrong, and it was the servants who poured out the wine who were the 'Sons of God'??

.

ralfellis · 03-19-2013, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Well the stories do report that Jesus liked to hang out in bars after work, and mingle with Mary and the girls while imbibing wine. Just the place for such a party trick.

And so were the Temples.

Many of the great oracles were based upon tricking the initiates in some respect, while it is acknowledged that many of Hero of Alexandria's mechanical devises were likewise commissioned by Temples, that wished to enthral their customers (so they would put more in the collecting plate).

Jesus' Fourth Sect Nazarenes were a part of that great tradition of duping the public - as are all churches and cathedrals to this day. Remember the vials of 'sand' that would turn to 'blood' when shaken? Same old, same old, tradition of deceiving the gullible proletariat (and the aristocrats, too).

.

DCHindley · 03-19-2013, 06:17 PM

ralf,

I have no idea what you are getting at anymore. Nowhere did I suggest that Jesus himself performed a "trick." What I did say was that if the author of the Gospel of John had portrayed Jesus himself pouring wine from a water pitcher, then the account might be alluding to one of these devices. But they are just large heavy stone containers from which liquid was scooped out by a cup or bucket to pour into a pitcher. If it were a mere trick, wouldn't it have been more effective if he had performed it in the middle of the crowd of guests. But it is not.

DCH (who will not take up this issue any more)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralfellis

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

If Jesus himself were portrayed as filling a pitcher with water and pouring out wine, I would give your suggestion more credence.

But the water-to-wine miracle is one of the defining actions of Jesus that 'proves' he was semi-divine. It was HIS trick.

Or are you saying that the Catholic Church has got it all wrong, and it was the servants who poured out the wine who were the 'Sons of God'??

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03-18-2013, 10:31 PM	#16
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	I have to agree with many here. This was nothing more then the Hellenistic authors attributing Hellenistic tricks of the time to build divnity on a man they never knew. I dont think in reality, even if a HJ existed, that he ever did this event and it is 100% mythology added to a real mans legend.

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