ChristMyth

I was listening to a popular "bible answer" show on the radio the other day on a christian station (I listen to these often, even to the preaching. I don't have cable or anything, so this is my version of the Comedy Channel) and was suprised when a caller asked the question refering to the command from god to kill disobedient children in the old testament (I don't have the exact quote so if anybody has it, I would appreciate it).

Anyway, the caller was refering to a popular radio host (whom was left unnamed) saying that he refused to believe in a god who would command such a thing and she was curious as to how to answer such an objection.

The answer astounded me so much that I actually stopped what I was doing and stared at my radio in disbelief. According to the host of the program, God did not mean "little children" but "adult" disobedient children. I was wondering if there is any basis in this statement. Have any of you ever heard such an apologetic answer to this.

Nero's Boot

A God who murders or orders the murder of tiny children cannot, by default, be a loving and omnibenevolent entity. Hence, the inordinate mental gymnastics theists go through the justify the barbaric atrocities their ("all-loving") Gods and prophets command.

--just look at the twisted logic of many fundamentalists on channels such as TBN or INSP NB

andrewcriddle

The passage is Deuteronomy 21:18-21

There is no example given in the Bible or Jewish tradition of it ever being acted upon. It may be intended to prevent parents taking the law into their own hands with respect to an out-of-control son.

It is not clear from the text what age of son is meant, but the Mishnah (in the course of limiting the circumstances in which this passage is relevant.) has it apply to adolescents ie early to mid teenagers. See tractate Sanhedrin chapter 8

Tosefta Sanhedrim chapter 11 says bluntly 'there never has been and never will be a rebellious and incorrigible son' [In the sense of one liable to death under this passage.]

Andrew Criddle

Steven Carr

It is also in the New Testament - Matthew 15

For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

Another hit for the accuracy of the New Testament!

Jesus complains that the Pharisees nullify the word of God , and indeed they did not act upon the commandment of God that Jesus insisted that they had to.

Assuming, of course, that there was some point in Jesus saying that it was a commandment of God that 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' Offhand, I can't think of any point in his saying that,

andrewcriddle

Jesus' point (obviously) is that respect for parents is of overriding importance and takes precednce over legal technicalities like Korban.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

I would just like to add that when Jesus says he is quoting Exodus 21:17 and parallels.

Deuteronomy 21 is not explicitly being referred to.

Andrew Criddle

Steven Carr

I still don't see how Jesus claiming that it was a commandment from God that 'He who curses his mother and father must be put to death', is relevant to the point he made, or what on earth Korban has to do with that particular commandment that Jesus chose to quote.

The Pharisees nullified the commandment that he who curses his mother and father must be put to death. Is that the point of Jesus quoting the commandment that the Pharisees refused to follow?

andrewcriddle

Paraphrasing what Jesus said.

'In the Law of Moses honouring Father and Mother is very important, in theory one could even be killed for dishonouring your parents, that's how important it is.

However you Pharisees and Scribes are so concerned about upholding the validity of vows, (even vows that should never ever have been made), that you put this concern for the Letter of the law before its Spirit. You are saying it is more important that a man keeps a vow to deprive his Father of some benefit in God's name, than that he honours his Father.

This concern for legal technicalities undermines the real meaning of the Law.'

Andrew Criddle

jonesg

You can see the same thing any night the TV is turned on to watch the "news" .

Steven Carr

Gosh, is that really what Jesus believed? And why 'could' when Jesus clearly believed that you 'should' be killed for dishonouring your parents?


'Theory' is an interesting word for commandments from God that Jesus complained were not being put into practice...