Vagabonder

I had a rather long discussion with my brother (a YEC) today about creationism, the global flood, bible prophecy, etc. One thing from the bible that he kept bringing up, which apparently confirmed almost everything else in the bible for him, was accuracy of bible prophecy. More specifically, the prophecies of the Jews being exiled, scattered worldwide, persecuted and all the while preserving their identity, and then a subsequent return to their homeland and reclaiming of Israel as their own country. (For more info on those prophecies, see here) He also mentioned the mark of the beast, globalization, etc. but he focussed on the apparently remarkable resilience of the Jews.

Since he uses this as the backbone for all his other irrational beliefs, I was hoping someone more versed in these prophecies, and bible prophecy in general, could offer their understanding of these "prophecies" and their significance in confirming the bible as a historically and scientifically accurate document.

Regards,

Brian

Jack the Bodiless

There are numerous verses in the Bible which refer to the return from the Babylonian Captivity after Cyrus conquered Babylon and allowed the Hebrews to go home. They are frequently cited out of context to manufacture "prophecies" of the re-emergence of Israel in the 20th century.

If the Bible DID contain such a prophecy, the place to look would be the Book of Revelation (which is supposed to be all about the "End Times"). But it contains nothing of the sort.

Johnny Skeptic

The Jews have never returned to their homeland in accordance with what the Old Testament says. Genesis 17:5 says "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Please note "ALL the land of Canaan." The Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia Deluxe 2004 says "Canaan, in the Old Testament, designation of the land to the west of the Jordan River, later known as Palestine......." Today, the Israelis do not occupy all of the land to the west of the Jordan River.

dog-on

Give them some time...

Johnny Skeptic

Until then, Vagabonder's brother has been refuted.

Since Jewish identity is not Christian identity, I wonder why Vagabonder's brother boasts about the preservation of Jewish identity. Jews teach children that Jesus was not the Son of God. The Pharisees were Jews, and Jesus criticized them on many occasions. Why would God be interested in giving land to the descendants of people who Jesus criticized?

If God has been a friend to Jews, who needs enemies? The Philistines, the Egyptians, Nebuchadnezzar, and Trajan demolished the Jews on numerous occasions. In the early part of the 2nd century, Trajan went to Palestine to quell a Jewish uprising, and killed 500,000 Jews. If God had not protected the Jews on that occasion, perhaps Trajan would have killed 1,000,000 Jews.

dog-on

Funny, that...

I travel to Israel quite often for business. In my time there I have become acquainted with some fairly radical Likud supporters that leave one with no doubt that Israel will reclaim their divine right of all the land of Canaan, from the Jordan River to the sea.

Of course, that's what the settlements are all about...

The Evil One

Let's hope they don't notice the bit where God promises them everything from the Nile to the Euphrates.

Minimalist

They tried. They can't hold it. Where was god then?

Vagabonder

I remember reading about the Jewish returning to their homeland to rebuild the temple in 516 BC, and the "prophecy" having been an ex eventu prophecy written after the fact by someone pretending to be in Babylonian captivity to provide a message of hope.

But my brother and the prophecy site I linked to above insists that it's a double prophecy, and the second fulfillment of it will come before the return of Jesus Christ.

As for the prophecy only being in Revelations, I find that Daniel was a rather prophetic book as was Ezekial, so I'm not sure how much that argument stands up. Christians love to skip around in the bible (as I'm sure you're aware) because they insist that it's one book, and it all makes sense together. So they can take a passage from Deuteronomy or Ezekial and have it link directly with a passage in Revelations.


If God has been a friend to Jews, who needs enemies? The Philistines, the Egyptians, Nebuchadnezzar, and Trajan demolished the Jews on numerous occasions. In the early part of the 2nd century, Trajan went to Palestine to quell a Jewish uprising, and killed 500,000 Jews. If God had not protected the Jews on that occasion, perhaps Trajan would have killed 1,000,000 Jews.[/QUOTE]

What's impressive to my brother is the bible stating they will be persecuted and spread all over the world, yet they will preserve their identity and make their way to their homeland again. He believes that because this event is so unlikely, that the bible saying it will happen confirms the literal truth of the bible.

That's interesting, because they're making the prophecy a self-fulfilling one. I brought this point up with my brother yesterday, stating that the Jews were simply living by the words of their religious text, and using that as a basis for hope, and the prophecy was only fulfilled because they knew about it. His response however was that humans don't like to be persecuted, and Jews, especially one's who reject the truth of Jesus Christ and who are even atheistic, would not carry on their cultural practices and preserve their heritage in the face of such persecution.

dog-on

You brother is seriously underestimating the base nationalism that exists in modern-day Israel, that it is all the more extreme due to the actual history of the Jewish people, especially in the last century, itself. He is also underestimating the religious fervour of the extremely right-wing Israeli settlers regarding their unshakable belief that God has given all this land to the Jews and that the Palestinians must leave.

...and of course, the fact that many Christian fundamentalists believe that in order for JC to make his long awaited re-appearance, the USA should help to arm Israel to the teeth in order to help this prophesy along, (because, of course, God himself needs all the help he can get). Naturally, once this happens, Jesus will cast those Jews, that do not renounce their current beliefs, into the pit.

Like I said, funny that...

So, yea, your brother is misinformed...