Postcard73

Assuming Jesus actually existed:
If Jesus was in fact mortal, then wasn't he bound to give up that life eventually anyway, just like the rest of us mortals? He isn't the only person in history to be tortured or even crucified, so what about his death should be considered a sacrifice? At best it should be regarded as no greater sacrifice than the death of any other mortal who has suffered a painful, prolonged death.In other words, a major part of his sacrifice was to stoop to the level of being human. I think this is a good example of the negative perception Christianity has of humanity.And "worst of all", the eternal Jesus had to spend around thirty years away from his father? Heh- I guess the other part of Jesus' sacrifice is what modern scholars refer to as being homesick. Seriously, if he was God in the flesh, then thirty or so years here on Earth wasn't even a blip on the radar: thirty years is meaningless to geologists, and they are still working within a finite timeframe. On the other hand, if he wasn't God incarnate, then he was just a deluded apocalyptic prophet. Also, I don't think the whole world hated him, since he had apostles and was able to gather large crowds who were willing to listen to him preach.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Magus55
The sacrifice is Jesus gave up His mortal life

He still lived/lives, didn't he? And thousands if not millions of people here on earth have given up their mortal lives for what they believed in, so, if you'll excuse the expression, big deal.

and as a divine being in perfect paradise

Where he still is.

gave it up to be whipped, beaten and tortured

Maybe this gives him a unique insight into the suffering his father inflicts on people by condemning them to hell.

No, I take that back. Hell lasts for all eternity, and Jesus's suffering lasted for what, a few hours?

and worst of all, was separated from God the Father for the first time in eternity

Why is this painful? Are you suggesting some sort of symbiosis or separation anxiety?

Who cares if He went back to Heaven - its not like He gained anything He didn't already have before He was killed.

Incorrect - he gained prestige and worship, all of which he noticeably lacked before the "sacrifice". You yourself have said on another thread that Jesus's "sacrifice" is what makes him worth our love and worship. By implication, therefore, he didn't deserve it before the "sacrifice".

SkepticBoyLee

Given God immortal lifespan his 30 something years on this earth and 12 hour "torture" is the most INSIGNIFIGANT period of time of any being in existance!!

Plus he knew he COULDNT POSSIBLY LOSE!! He knew he couldnt lose and worse case scenario he would just lose his crappy mortal body and resume his seat as king pin ruler over all creation.

Mageth

Originally posted by Magus55
The sacrifice is Jesus gave up His mortal life, and as a divine being in perfect paradise, gave it up to be whipped, beaten and tortured beyond recognition, and worst of all, was separated from God the Father for the first time in eternity all for a world of sinners who hate Him.

What are you talking about? Jesus the God went straight from the Cross to Heaven, according to most theologians I've read. And according to Jesus himself : "On this day you will be with me in Paradise."

Jesus was still a human, and gave up His human life.

Exactly: Jesus the God didn't die. That's kinda the point. God wasn't man enough to die for us himself; he had to find a human "volunteer" body to possess to do it for him.

Who cares if He went back to Heaven - its not like He gained anything He didn't already have before He was killed.

"Who cares if he went back to Heaven"? Jeez, Magus, that's one of the central tenets of Christian doctrine. From the Nicene Creed:

he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

From the Apostle's creed:

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

And I've pointed this out to you at least a couple of times before, but the Bible disagrees with you quite strongly about the "it's not like He gained anything He didn't already have" bit:

1 Peter 1:21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Hebrews 2:7-9 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Act 2:32-33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 5:31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians 1:20-23 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Phillipians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Herakles

The sacrifice is Jesus gave up His mortal life, and as a divine being in perfect paradise, gave it up to be
But that still doesn't take away the fact that his suffering was only temporary and finite. He knew that after just a short time he would get to go back up to heaven and be worshipped again. The ultimate sacrafice would be to pay an eternal price.

whipped, beaten and tortured beyond recognition,
I don't recall ever reading that he was tortured beyond recognition.

and worst of all, was separated from God the Father for the first time in eternity all for a world of sinners who hate Him.
Magus, can you give me a Bible reference that shows that this separation occured and why it was so bad? I hear this "separation" claim a lot from fundies but I never get a verse. I'm sure there probably is one but I have never seen it.

But didn't he spend the time between his crusifixion and his resurrection in heaven? That is not separation from the father.

Who says everyone hates Jesus?

Jesus was still a human, and gave up His human life. Who cares if He went back to Heaven - its not like He gained anything He didn't already have before He was killed.
Yeah, your right. Eternal worship and a few billion followers is nothing.

Magus55

Not when you don't actually need it.

Magus55

Because we know what crucifixion is like, and it was prophecized 1000 years before Christ was even born.

Magus55

To an atheist, I imagine it doesn't.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Magus55
Not when you don't actually need it.

Who says that Jesus doesn't need it? In the OT, he's hardly ever mentioned, much less worshipped. People don't offer burnt offerings to him. Now, they kiss the water he walked on.

In any case, a gain is a gain whether one needs it or not.

Babylon Sister

If he doesn't actually need worshippers, why do christians work so hard to convert others?