Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 05-20-2009, 11:18 AM

Quote:

...
"From a biblical point of view, this is arguably the most important archaeological excavation of all time," archaeologist Dr. Steven Collins said.

Collins is with the Trinity Southwest University, a biblical institution in Albuquerque.

...

"We've got the exact site that the writer of the book of Genesis was thinking about when he wrote the tale of the city of Sodom and Gomorrah," Collins said.

The report on the excavation is here (pdf format)

Quote:

As is now widely known—especially in the light of Dr. Collins' lecture in Amman (16 Jan 2009) to the Friends of Archaeology and Heritage of Jordan, and their subsequent fieldtrip to the site a few days later—that Tall el-Hammam remains a logical candidate for biblical Sodom based on a detailed analysis of the relevant biblical and historical materials regarding the chronology and location of the city (Tristram 1874:330-333; Thomson 1882: 371-376; Collins 2002a, 2002b, 2002c, 2008; cf. MacDonald 2000: 45-61). Extensive research, along with archaeological data from four seasons of excavation, are now leading many scholars to entertain or adopt this theory on its evidential merits. That the enduring and powerful presence of Tall el-Hammam and its associated towns and villages on the eastern Jordan Disk during the Bronze Age gave rise to the Cities of the Plain tradition reflected in the stories of Genesis 10-19 is a reasonable theory commensurate with all of the available geographical and archaeological data. Future tourism potential for such a site as Tall el-Hammam must not be overlooked or underestimated. From all perspectives, preservation of this highly important site is imperative.

Roger Pearse · 05-20-2009, 11:31 AM

We ought to remember that all our knowledge of the Near East comes from populist initiatives like this. I wish I could find a way to interest people like this in all the buried books in the sands of Egypt. Then we might go and find them!

semiopen · 05-20-2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

We ought to remember that all our knowledge of the Near East comes from populist initiatives like this. I wish I could find a way to interest people like this in all the buried books in the sands of Egypt. Then we might go and find them!

There's no salt in it.

Zenaphobe · 05-20-2009, 02:10 PM

Quote:

The archaeologists found ancient pottery in Jordan. The oldest pieces were made about 7,000 years ago.

I wonder how the YEC's are going to fit this into the 6000 year old earth theory?

Toto · 05-20-2009, 02:20 PM

Trinity Southwest University

Quote:

The mission of Trinity Southwest University is to provide quality higher education to adult learners, teaching them (through a variety of biblically based disciplines) to uphold the divine authority of the Bible as God's inspired representation of reality to humankind, and equipping them to apply its eternal truths to all phases of life.

DOCTRINAL POSITION

Trinity Southwest University is a trans-denominational institution in the evangelical mainstream of the historic Christian Faith. However, TSU views creedal formulations and statements of faith beyond the Bible itself, as grids that relegate the Word of God to patient status, rather than its proper role as agent in our lives. Therefore, we humbly submit our minds to the Bible by embracing Scripture (the ancient Hebrew Tanakh and the New Testament) as the only written, divinely inspired representation of reality given by God to humankind, speaking with absolute authority in all matters upon which it touches.

I think Trinity is evangelical but not fundamentalist, with a large dollop of post-modernism. They will find a way to incorporate this highly important find, with its future tourism potential, into their theology.

Toto · 05-20-2009, 04:20 PM

Trinity publishes a BIBLICAL RESEARCH BULLETIN and articles can be downloaded from online, so you can judge the quality and background of the work.

Collins is literally doing old style Biblical Archaeology, with a Bible in one hand and a shovel in the other. In The Architecture of Sodom Collins reads through Gen 19 for clues as to the size and characteristics of Sodom.

Collins seems to be the only one publishing in the Bulletin. I'm a little curious as to how he funds his work - through student fees and donations? Trinity does not take government funding of any sort.

lpetrich · 05-20-2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

We ought to remember that all our knowledge of the Near East comes from populist initiatives like this. I wish I could find a way to interest people like this in all the buried books in the sands of Egypt. Then we might go and find them!

ALL our knowledge?

So fundie Bible worship is a useful Royal Lie for the funding of archeological research?

In any case, I think that the Sodom and Gomorrah story is a Just So Story for explaining ruins of abandoned cities, with the moral lesson that one ought to be good hosts to one's guests. Its names are symbolic:

Sodom = burned, scorched
Gomorrah = heap
Sodom: King Bera = Ben Ra = Son of Evil
Gomorrah: King Birsha = Ben Rasha = Son of Mischief

So those two places were Burntville and Rubbleheap, ruled by Mr. Evil and Mr. Mischief.

semiopen · 05-21-2009, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

We ought to remember that all our knowledge of the Near East comes from populist initiatives like this. I wish I could find a way to interest people like this in all the buried books in the sands of Egypt. Then we might go and find them!

ALL our knowledge?

So fundie Bible worship is a useful Royal Lie for the funding of archeological research?

In any case, I think that the Sodom and Gomorrah story is a Just So Story for explaining ruins of abandoned cities, with the moral lesson that one ought to be good hosts to one's guests. Its names are symbolic:

Sodom = burned, scorched
Gomorrah = heap
Sodom: King Bera = Ben Ra = Son of Evil
Gomorrah: King Birsha = Ben Rasha = Son of Mischief

So those two places were Burntville and Rubbleheap, ruled by Mr. Evil and Mr. Mischief.

Judging from the mob's refusal to molest Lot's daughters, women were relatively safe there.

If Sarah and Abraham went there, Sarah would be the one telling him to be her brother, lest they kill her to get him.

DrJim · 05-21-2009, 06:31 PM

OK, someone has to say it, and it might as well be me.

The best methodology for finding historical evidence of the biblical Sodom is to pull it out of one's butt.

spin · 05-21-2009, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrJim

The best methodology for finding historical evidence of the biblical Sodom is to pull it out of one's butt.

Oh cruel, very cruel...

(pause to ponder)

...but does that sort of excavation give results?

spin

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05-20-2009, 11:31 AM	#2
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	We ought to remember that all our knowledge of the Near East comes from populist initiatives like this. I wish I could find a way to interest people like this in all the buried books in the sands of Egypt. Then we might go and find them!

05-20-2009, 04:20 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Trinity publishes a BIBLICAL RESEARCH BULLETIN and articles can be downloaded from online, so you can judge the quality and background of the work. Collins is literally doing old style Biblical Archaeology, with a Bible in one hand and a shovel in the other. In The Architecture of Sodom Collins reads through Gen 19 for clues as to the size and characteristics of Sodom. Collins seems to be the only one publishing in the Bulletin. I'm a little curious as to how he funds his work - through student fees and donations? Trinity does not take government funding of any sort.

05-21-2009, 06:31 PM	#9
DrJim Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Lethbridge AB Canada Posts: 445	OK, someone has to say it, and it might as well be me. The best methodology for finding historical evidence of the biblical Sodom is to pull it out of one's butt.

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