Pilate

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you … and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.� (Matthew 11:28-30 NIV) :thumbs:

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.� (Luke 14:26 NIV) :down:

Chili

Hi Pilate, hate is an overstatement. The NAB has "turn his back on" and that is not the same as hate. It means "beyond theology" and hate sure is not anywhere's near that. Maybe you should burn that bible before it burns you?

Pilate

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother :angry:, his wife :devil1: and children :Cheeky:, his brothers ♂ and sisters ♀ ...he cannot be my disciple.� (Luke 14:26 NIV)

Naturally, "You turn your back on" (you shun) someone you hate. The NAB tried to shugar coat the yoke of Jesus. Jesus made it sound like a piece of cake: "... you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." He said this to entice you to get you in. Once you are in, then you start hating everybody: from the Jehovah Witnesses to the Muslims (hate them! They are Satan's followers! :devil3: )
Nevertheless, "hate" is the correct translation. The word in the Greek text is
"μισεί", which, according to NEW THAYER'S GREEK ENGLISH LEXICON, means "to hate, pursue with hatred, detest." Wow! .... Wouldn't you agree that this verse advocates shunning? You know the opposite of love is not hate. It is indifference. And indifference is unresponsiveness, appathy, and shunning. So according to the rendering of the NAB this verse teaches the opposite of loving. Now, Chili, wouldn't you agree that you do not have to hate or shun others in order to follow what is good and do what is good? .... The fruit of love is unity. Any belief that brings division is not good. And as Jesus said, “... every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits {by their works, not by their faith}.� (Matthew 7:17-20 NRSV) Christianity produces some good fruit and some bad fruit (for example, Pat :angel: Robertson :devil3: ). The tree of Christianity needs pruning. And every branch the does not bear good fruit needs to be cut and thrown into the fire. (The words of Jesus are a 'double edged sword.") Wouldn't you agree with this?
"It has been said, 'Love your enemy,' but I say unto you, respect those who disagree with you and be good to those that don't hurt you or don't hurt others. Amen! :notworthy "
Wouldn't you say Amen to this Chili?

Chili

Notice that "you" and "your soul" are not the same so when Luke says that we, as in "you" here, must hate the very "you" we pretend to be before we can be his disciple he is telling us that we must become a disciple of our own soul and this is not possible until we are 'black' with hate.

The Little Black Boy
(William Blake) -- (bold is mine)

My mother bore me in the southern wild,
And I am black, but oh my soul is white!
White as an angel is the English child,
But I am black, as if bereaved of light.

My mother taught me underneath a tree,
And, sitting down before the heat of day,
She took me on her lap and kissed me,
And, pointed to the east, began to say:

"Look on the rising sun: there God does live,
And gives His light, and gives His heat away,
And flowers and trees and beasts and men receive
Comfort in morning, joy in the noonday.

"And we are put on earth a little space,
That we may learn to bear the beams of love
And these black bodies and this sunburnt face
Is but a cloud, and like a shady grove.

"For when our souls have learn'd the heat to bear,
The cloud will vanish, we shall hear His voice,
Saying, 'Come out from the grove, my love and care
And round my golden tent like lambs rejoice',"

Thus did my mother say, and kissed me;
And thus I say to little English boy.
When I from black and he from white cloud free,
And round the tent of God like lambs we joy

I'll shade him from the heat till he can bear
To lean in joy upon our Father's knee;
And then I'll stand and stroke his silver hair,
And be like him, and he will then love me.


The hate we have towards others cannot be a motivating force to become disciple but is the consequence of the hate we have for the image we have of our self. In other words, our friends and family do not need to be changed but we must be changed and once we are changed they will look better on us. This would be how his burden is easy and his yoke is light without us having to hate anyone.

Let me postulate here that hate is the flip side of human love (eros) that must be extracted from divine Love (agape) before it can be conceived to exist . . . or Agape would have an opposite of its own from where hate is inspired. This, of course, is not the case and therefore hate is a figment of our imagination that must overwhelm us before we can vacate the "we" and become a disciple (slave) to the source of love wherein hate is not. Period.

Indifferene is the absense of love and therefore has no hate but that makes 'good works' the fruits for the sake of righteousness instead of goodness as an end in itself and that will soon become food for the ravens.

Quote:

The fruit of love is unity.

Yes, but I would say first that belief is the tree that bears the fruit and this is either good or bad and will be judged accordingly.

Killer Mike

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Splarnst

How do you justify equating “turn his back on� with “beyond theology�? They're not even the same grammatical class; one is a verb phrase and another is a prepositional phrase. You can't even put in in the text and have it readable, much less think hate has anything to do with theology.

SaintCog

This is just funny. The Greek term used for "hate," or "beyond theology" if you will, is miseo. This is a very unambiguous Greek term. It simply means "hate." Check any Greek lexicon.

BTW, the NAB does not say "turn his back on" it says "hate."

Other passages in the gospels where the term miseo is used. Tell me which you think is the better translation:

Matt 10.22
- and you will be hated by all because of my name
- and all will go beyond your theology because of my name

Luke 6.22
- Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you on account of the Son of Man.
- Blessed are you when people go beyond theology, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you on account of the Son of Man.

Seriously, don't be absurd.

Cheers,
SC

CowboyHeretic

That any true believer and follower must put the things of G-d ahead of earthly things. That those of the Way are of a new family.

Chili

To hate one's own life is to hate one's own outlook on life which here is preambled with the hate of brothers and sisters etc. This outlook on life is ours and ours only and therefore it is the theology of our life beyond which the new world of discipleship is to be found. Notice that it is a requisite ("if anyone comes to me") and not a condition after.

If you object to my use of the word theology to speak on behalf of the meaning of life I would say that it is used as an opposite to the word philosophy wherein wisdom is found. So here we are exchanging our theology in search for philosophy.

In our modern day Christianity this idea is somewhat perverted with the words "I surrender all" as a requisite to "follow Jesus." Luke's message here is that the very will to surrender itself must be surrendered and therefore it is beyond theology (words including the words "I surrender all").

Chili

That's interesting! Mine says: "If anyone comes to me without turning his back on his father and mother, his wife and his children, his brothers and sisters, indeed his very self, he cannot be my follower." Of course mine is the Holy Bible and I wonder if that makes a difference.You're right, thanks for the ammunition for my argument that he should burn his before it burns him.