windsofchange

Actually, you don't have to believe that *all* the apostles lied or made up the story. All it would take is one or two very eloquent and convincing storytellers to get the ball rolling. The rest probably did sincerely believe.

After all, as Christians are always reminding us, "they were but simple fishermen".

Johann_Kaspar

Yeah, and their leader was walking on the sea. Do you begin to understand? Or are you stuck but what the xians think?

Elijah

I agree the word martyr should only apply to Christ or another word needs to be thought up to describe what he was doing. Similar to the saying by Friedrich Nietzsche


"The very word 'Christianity' is a misunderstanding —, in truth, there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross."

But instead of “christian” “martyr” because to me the christians are all the ones who follow the example of the one true martyr, Christ.

It’s all just semantics.

I believe that Jesus was more then a story of course, but the whole myth jesus deal is a discussion for another post.


2 macc 7:2 “We are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our ancestors.”

I would like to say the same about my father’s ways. Maybe I would coward out with a blade to my throat, but maybe enough pride would see me through, especially if my loved ones were watching on. But at the end of the day I wouldn’t be a martyr I wouldn’t have done what Jesus did because I would have done it out of pride and not love. Death before dishonor. They were a simple arrest; Jesus was manufacturing his own downfall.

Diogenes the Cynic

Anytime you'd like to explain exactly what Jesus did that was any different from what Socrates did would be great.

windsofchange

Um - I'm kinda stuck on understanding what you're asking me here. :huh:

Elijah

Can you tell me what Socrates did that was like Jesus?

What were the beliefs that Socrates died for. Who was he dying for? Socrates gives his reasons for not fleeing, too damn old and prideful.

You say a martyr is “anyone who dies for a cause”, but what if your “cause” is simple greed or malevolence towards others.

I don’t think you’re as slow as you’re making out, I think your just being difficult for difficulty sake. I don’t believe there is any way possible that you can’t see the difference between the death of Socrates and the death of Christ. Seeing similarities is easy between each of our lives and deaths but seeing what made Christ’s life and death unique requires a little bit of thought about what drives a man.

windsofchange

According to the wikipedia entry on Socrates, Socrates' reasons for not fleeing were:

Where are you getting "too damn old and prideful" from that?

Johann_Kaspar

I am trying to get an answer about the "fact" that he was "walking on the sea". xians say it is miraculous. Here infidels say nothing. Now you mention "fishermen". I was thinking that you understood what "fishermen" means.

windsofchange

I was actually being sarcastic when I quoted Christians as saying "they were but simple fishermen". Perhaps I should have highlighted the word "simple" since to me it is a polite synonym for "gullible".

I don't feel any need to give you an answer about "walking on the sea" because I wasn't referring to that at all. Perhaps you have confused me with someone else.

And yes, I do understand what "fishermen" means. But thanks for asking.

Diogenes the Cynic

He went around spouting off and annoying people and got executed for it.
I think the problem is that you are making assumptions about Jesus that I do not make. You think I'm saying "Socrates was just as noble as Jesus," when what i'm actually saying is that we have no reason to believe that Jesus was so all-fired noble in the first place. We know (at best) that he was executed by Pilate for some kind of perceived crime against Rome. We have no reason to assume that he chose this death, that he thought it served any purpose, that he wasn't actually guilty of something, that he didn't try to run away, that he didn't protest, beg for his life or renounce any of his own words when he was about to get nailed up. You're assuming both an intent and a "cause" which you can't prove existed.