ecco

Thanks Diogenes. A lot of ledgends can grow in 70 years.

steph s.

hi iasion, good post. lucian's reference to 'that crucified sophist' is very late but is the lack of a name enough to dismiss it?

"Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they are all brothers of one another after they have transgressed once, for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified sophist himself and living under his laws."
(passing of peregrinus (13) text from http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/lucian/peregrinus.htm)

andrewcriddle

The Ebionites of the 2nd century CE and later had probably preserved some early Christian beliefs and practices which had been lost in the wider church; however like other 2nd century Christians they had changed substantially from their 1st century origins.

One important changes is that the early Jewish-Christians appear to have been deeply committed to the worship at the Jerusalem Temple, while the later Ebionites strongly condemmned the Temple ritual.

Andrew Criddle

Jayhawker Soule

Would you elaborate on this please?

Clivedurdle

But isn't this clear evidence of an esoteric Jesus and Christ?

andrewcriddle

The passage about Nero's persecution of Christians from which the statement about Christ comes is referred to by Sulpicius Severus around 400 CE (It is formally possible that the passage about Christ is a later gloss to an original passage by Tacitus about Nero's persecution of Christians but this appears a minority opinion even among those who doubt the passage as it stands.)


The Mara bar Serapion passage is almost certainly referring to Jesus We have a 'Wise King' who promulgates laws, for whose death the Jews are regrded as responsible, and who dies reasonably shortly before the expulsion of the Jews from their own kingdom. (Presumably the catastrophe of 70 CE is referred to.)

This fits the NT picture of Jesus and doesn't fit any other figure from the relevant period.

I agree there is a problem with the date of Mara being so uncertain.

IF one regards him as referring to 70 CE as the time when the Jewish kingdom was overthrown, then he is probably writing before the later but similar catastrophe c 135 CE. ie probably very early in the 2nd century.

Andrew Criddle

Wallener

I'm having trouble connecting that passage to Jesus or any other late-second temple figure. Socrates and Pythagoras are figures from hundreds of years prior, Jesus wasn't. Nor is there any record of Jesus "promulgating laws" and for sure we know he wasn't "king". Seems more plausible the "wise king" was Josiah and the dispersion was the Babylonion Captivity - especially given discovery of proto-Deuteronomy and general solidifying of Torah that took place during Josiah's reign.

andrewcriddle

The NT writings and later writers such as Hegesippus represent James and his associates as devoted to the Jewish Temple ritual.

However the Ebionites present a different picture The 'Gospel of the Ebionites' as recorded by Epiphanius says Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

Jesus in the sermon on the mount in Matthew could be understood as promulgating a new law code. Jesus was supposedly executed for claiming to be the 'King of the Jews"
Is there any sense in which Josiah's fellow Jews could be blamed for his death ?

Andrew Criddle

Diogenes the Cynic

I don't see where the passage does blame the Jews for the death of the "wise king" It just says they didn't gain anything by it.

I think it's a stretch to apply this to Jesus. Aside from tne fact that he wasn't a king and didn't make any laws, the "kingdom" had already been taken away before he was crucified.