tanya

Hey, Roger, OUTSTANDING. Well done. Thanks so much, that's a terrific effort. I hope other forum members will drop by to see the effort you put into that. Very much appreciated.....

Cheers,

Roger Pearse

You're welcome.

I was really looking at your question about the archetype of the manuscripts:

The existence of this low-quality copy is inferred from the types of errors found in the oldest manuscripts. Unfortunately German is not my best language, and I was unable to follow Holl's argument.

The archetype manuscript must have predated 800 AD, when manuscript V was written; probably by quite a bit. Of course we don't know anything much about this inferred item, such as who wrote it, when, or where it was found. It was, I'm sure, written in uncial.

It is absolutely normal for all copies of a Greek classical or patristic text to descend from a single copy. The reason for this is that the letters used in manuscripts changed from the large uncial letters to the small minuscule around the start of the 9th century, and the older forms quickly became less easy to read, to scribes used to the new one. In consequence it was usual for a text to be copied once from uncial to minuscule, and then all subsequent copies to be made, not from the uncial exemplar, but from the minuscule copy.

A change in technology is like a narrow gate through which texts have to pass.

There is a splendid example of the same phenomenon in the Latin world, with the Italian copies of the "Cluny" collection of the works of Tertullian. A manuscript was written in Germany in 1426, in the Gothic bookhand and brought to Italy, to Florence. There it was copied by Niccolo Niccoli, who wrote the new "Roman" (think Times Roman) hand. The Gothic exemplar, and the Niccoli copy, have stayed together ever since, and are still in Florence. Now there are quite a number of copies of this collection in Italy. But every single one of them is derived, not from the Gothic exemplar, but from Niccoli's copy. The latter was simply easier to read.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

tanya

yeah, I have read that in olden times, the nuns would take a ruler and slap the hands of those bad pupils (translate = tanya) who failed to do their homework, isn't there always something else to do, that is a bit more interesting than memorizing declensions?

So, me too, I had difficulty reading Holl's text, but, what I thought was really outstanding, was your taking the time to help out those of us with questions about the current English translation.... Very solid work, Roger, very much appreciated.

Umm, for those other "bad pupils", who may not have understood (as I had not), that this original document, "V", described here by Roger, from Holl, is not "our" Codex Vaticanus, i.e. like our Codex Sinaiticus, our in the sense, that we frequently cite it, here on the forum, as an authority. This Codex Vaticanus business is a tad confusing, but what it means, at the end of the day, is simply that this particular V document, is an ancient document housed in the Vatican library. It is not (haha, as I had thought) an integral component of "the" Codex Vaticanus, sister publication to Codex Sinaiticus.

Well, there is only so much tomato sauce to go around. I have enjoyed a bit more than my share today, so now I will turn it over to someone else, to demonstrate, again, how easy it is to be hopelessly confused.....

Cheers,

DCHindley

Isn't this 2004 2nd edition under copyright? Apparently there is a fee owed for photocopying a private copy.

I've downloaded from Scribd.com a self published Doctoral Dissertation by D T Runia but don't see a copyright notice on it.

DCH

stephan huller

It's not mine. I just saw it when I was looking for another document. Some Jewish guy who must be a composer or a conductor or something who happens to be interested in Jewish and Christian mysticism.

mountainman

The other one to look for is an english translation of the Codex Theodosianus.

When this book become freely available, along with Epiphanius, the politics of the 4th century will be more clearly and widely revealed.

Roger Pearse

Glad to help! I always feel that it's much better to spend time on making stuff accessible to us all. I always feel grateful to those who help with languages that I don't speak either.

Yes, this is right. Basically the scholars who write editions get tired of writing "Vatican manuscript" or manuscript in the French National Library, so they abbreviate to things like "V", and "P", and so on. It saves space and time. So the letters are arbitrary, and indeed change sometimes.

We've all done it, and there is nothing to be ashamed of. On the contrary, well done for having a go at it! In my experience it takes several goes to get the hang of something like Holl. When I was running a cooperative translation project online, the chap who did the first attempt at some passage had a way harder task than those who then "corrected" it. Breaking the ice and putting up *something* was the precondition for the others being able to pile in.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

There is an English translation of this. Unfortunately the copyright was renewed. As it is owned by a firm of lawyers, my guess is that few will mess with it.

Never mind. When I am dead, it will come out of copyright.