Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sugarhitman · 04-29-2009, 05:31 AM

Storytime (a befitting name in light of this), says that there were Jews in the Roman Senate during the days of Paul's case before the Roman government. Who were they? (if they ever existed).

sugarhitman · 04-29-2009, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Storytime (a befitting name in light of this), says that there were Jews in the Roman Senate during the days of Paul's case before the Roman government. Who were they? (if they ever existed).

Certainly one of you would like to back up your friend on this? I'm just dying to learn about Jews who were Roman Senators...arent you readers?

semiopen · 04-29-2009, 09:27 AM

This would be a select group. I've been waiting for a reply to IAMJOSEPH's claim that Paul was not historical. Perhaps there is some sort of theist etiquette, that discourages this.

This suggests a related question of Jewish Washington Senators, who at least were clearly historical.

The most famous was probably

Quote:

Mississippi-bred Charles Solomon “Buddy” Myer, the Washington Senators’ second baseman of the 1930s, who, with 2,131 hits, is the only Jewish player to have passed the 2,000 mark.

This can be found here:

http://www.forward.com/articles/6844/

steve_bnk · 04-29-2009, 09:48 AM

From what I read the diaspoora Jews were well reespected in the Empire for their ability to create wealth and their strong patriarchal families.

The Jewish faith for a time was a fad religion among the Romans.

Toto · 04-29-2009, 10:26 AM

I don't think that Paul was ever in Rome, so I don't know how you would know if there were Jewish Roman Senators at the time or what difference that would have made. :huh:

There was one Roman Senator in the first century who is variously claimed to be Jewish, or a Jewish sympathizer, or a Christian.

http://www.livius.org/di-dn/diaspora/rome.html

Quote:

A final story is that of the embassy of rabbi Eleazar the Great, rabbi Joshua en rabbi Gamaliel to the emperor Domitian. A strange legend in a rabbinical treatise called Deuteronomy Rabbah (2.24) implies that they converted an important senator, who later committed suicide in order to protect the Jews. This story is remarkable, because we know from the Greek historian Cassius Dio that under Domitian, a senator named Flavius Clemens was executed and his wife Domitilla exiled because of their Jewish sympathies (Roman history 67.14.1-2).

There may be more to this than meets the eye. During the reign of Domitian, the Roman members of the Christian sect (at that time still a branch of Judaism), had a leader named Clemens, who was married to a Domitilla. This Clemens' house has been excavated under the modern church of San Clemente, and it is certainly a rich man's estate. Before we conclude that the author of Deuteronomium Rabbah and Cassius Dio both refer to an early pope, it should be pointed out that the Christian tradition says that the Christian Clemens was not executed by Domitian, but exiled to the Crimea (and killed by Trajan). Another difference is that the converted senator was, according to Deuteronomium Rabbah, not executed, but committed suicide. Nonetheless, it would seem that an important senator did indeed convert to (the Christian branch of) Judaism.

Perfectly clear?

sugarhitman · 04-29-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

From what I read the diaspoora Jews were well reespected in the Empire for their ability to create wealth and their strong patriarchal families.

The Jewish faith for a time was a fad religion among the Romans.

So was christianity...but that didnt stop Rome from killing them. (the christians)

Storytime, in defending her/his Jewish conspiracy myth, has gone so far as to say that there were powerful Jewish Roman Senators in the Roman government who along with Paul put on some sort of theatric Religious dispute....get this...to protect Judasim! Unbelievable!

steve_bnk · 04-29-2009, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

From what I read the diaspoora Jews were well reespected in the Empire for their ability to create wealth and their strong patriarchal families.

The Jewish faith for a time was a fad religion among the Romans.

So was christianity...but that didnt stop Rome from killing them. (the christians)

Storytime, in defending her/his Jewish conspiracy myth, has gone so far as to say that there were powerful Jewish Roman Senators in the Roman government who along with Paul put on some sort of theatric Religious dispute....get this...to protect Judasim! Unbelievable!

I am referencing the time in which JC would have lived. Rome was cosmopolitan so to speak.

sugarhitman · 04-29-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I don't think that Paul was ever in Rome, so I don't know how you would know if there were Jewish Roman Senators at the time or what difference that would have made. :huh:

There was one Roman Senator in the first century who is variously claimed to be Jewish, or a Jewish sympathizer, or a Christian.

http://www.livius.org/di-dn/diaspora/rome.html

Quote:

A final story is that of the embassy of rabbi Eleazar the Great, rabbi Joshua en rabbi Gamaliel to the emperor Domitian. A strange legend in a rabbinical treatise called Deuteronomy Rabbah (2.24) implies that they converted an important senator, who later committed suicide in order to protect the Jews. This story is remarkable, because we know from the Greek historian Cassius Dio that under Domitian, a senator named Flavius Clemens was executed and his wife Domitilla exiled because of their Jewish sympathies (Roman history 67.14.1-2).

There may be more to this than meets the eye. During the reign of Domitian, the Roman members of the Christian sect (at that time still a branch of Judaism), had a leader named Clemens, who was married to a Domitilla. This Clemens' house has been excavated under the modern church of San Clemente, and it is certainly a rich man's estate. Before we conclude that the author of Deuteronomium Rabbah and Cassius Dio both refer to an early pope, it should be pointed out that the Christian tradition says that the Christian Clemens was not executed by Domitian, but exiled to the Crimea (and killed by Trajan). Another difference is that the converted senator was, according to Deuteronomium Rabbah, not executed, but committed suicide. Nonetheless, it would seem that an important senator did indeed convert to (the Christian branch of) Judaism.

Perfectly clear?

Oh so there was one Roman Senator who may or may not have converted to Judasim. That my friend does not support Storytime's misleading accusation that there were JEWISH (ethnic Jews) Roman Senators aiding Paul in some scheme to protect Judasim.

storytime · 04-29-2009, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

From what I read the diaspoora Jews were well reespected in the Empire for their ability to create wealth and their strong patriarchal families.

The Jewish faith for a time was a fad religion among the Romans.

So was christianity...but that didnt stop Rome from killing them. (the christians)

Storytime, in defending her/his Jewish conspiracy myth, has gone so far as to say that there were powerful Jewish Roman Senators in the Roman government who along with Paul put on some sort of theatric Religious dispute....get this...to protect Judasim! Unbelievable!

No, it was you who connected Paul with powerful Jewish Roman senators in your own twisted version of my conspiracy theory/myth. Try staying within my conspiracy theory/myth if you're going to criticize it.

I find it strange that you would probably believe a Jewish governor named Joseph was made administrator of Egypt but not Jewish politicians holding office in the Roman Empire. Sure you're up to tackling my speculations?

Toto · 04-29-2009, 12:26 PM

People post all sorts of nonsense on the internet. If you are going to challenge storytime, you should at least link to his post and let him know.

I gather that you object to this statement in this post in that thread that got moved back to GRD:

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

And why would Romans persecute Jewish members of their own Roman interests? Many Jewish men held office equal to that of Romans (the senators). Herod is another example. Why would Romans then desecrate the Jewish temple that their friend and alli, Herod had finished building?

At this point, I'm not going to bother trying to figure out what the point of this was. The word "senator" is an error, but Herod was a Roman ally, and there were Jewish men who were officials.

04-29-2009, 05:31 AM	#1
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	Jewish Roman Senators? Storytime (a befitting name in light of this), says that there were Jews in the Roman Senate during the days of Paul's case before the Roman government. Who were they? (if they ever existed).

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04-29-2009, 09:48 AM	#4
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	From what I read the diaspoora Jews were well reespected in the Empire for their ability to create wealth and their strong patriarchal families. The Jewish faith for a time was a fad religion among the Romans.

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