Roger Pearse

Surely getting the facts right is our websites is our responsibility, and no-one else's?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Malachi151

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, other than perhaps, a cop-out.

You claimed that my quotes were not representative of Christian thought in the 1st through 4th centuries.

I can tell you this, I have searched every major work from early Christian fathers on the internet for the words "atom", "atomism", atomic", etc., "Epicurus", "Epicurean", "universe", "antipodes", "fortuitous", "materialism", and the names of other Greek materialist phislosophers, etc. - over 200 different works that are presented by the Catholic Church as the representative of the early fathers.

In not one single case did I ever find one reference supporting atomism or supporting materialism. All references to atomism, the theory of gravity, the materialism, the idea of other planets and other life, etc., were oppositional.

If you want to claim that what I have presented is not representative, then prove it.

Loomis

Deuteronomy 32:7-9

Remember the ancient days;
bear in mind the years of past generations.
Ask your father and he will inform you,
your elders, and they will tell you.
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided up humankind,
he set the boundaries of the peoples,
according to the number of the sons of El;
Yahweh's allotment is his people
Jacob is the portion of his inheritance.

Because it shows that some folks used to think that Yahweh was a member of El’s pantheon.

See above - that some folks used to think that Yahweh was a member of El’s pantheon.

I’ve read the ancient author who wrote this:

Yahweh your elohim is El the merciful. He will not drop you or destroy you, for he cannot forget the covenant with your ancestors that he confirmed by oath to them.

And the ancient author who wrote this:

Baal has fallen to the earth,
Dead is Baal the might.
Perished is the prince, LORD of the earth.
Then the kindly one, El the merciful
Comes down from his throne, he sits on the footstool,
And coming off the footstool, he sits on the ground.

And the ancient author who wrote this:

Yahweh, the council of holy ones in heaven applaud the marvel of your faithfulness.
Who in the skies can compare with Yahweh?
Which of the sons of El can rival him?
El, dreaded in the council of holy ones, great and terrible to all around him,
Yahweh, the god of Sabaoth, who is like you?
Mighty Yahweh, clothed in your faithfulness!
You control the pride of the Sea, when its waves ride high, you calm them;
you split Rahab in two like a carcase and scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.

I agree.

Phlox Pyros

Loomis, when you fail to prove your unfounded translations from actual knowledge of the languages, your information cannot be trusted.

yummyfur

Actually it is "Look behind you; remember you are but a man." in Tertullian

A similar phrase is also referenced in Cassius Dio in a epitome and as references to Cassius Dio in other works, so we don't need to, nor should we just trust Tertullian.

in John Zonares(of chess banning fame) epitome

"A public slave, however, rode with the victor in the chariot itself, holding over him the crown of precious stones set in gold, and kept saying to him, "Look behind!" that is, "Look at what comes after — at the ensuing years of life — and do not be elated or puffed up by your present fortune."

in Tzetzes, Epistles

"In the chariot a public slave stands behind him holding up the crown and saying in his ear: "See also what comes after."

in Tzetzes, Chiliades

"A public slave, standing in the back part of the chariot, holds up the crown, saying in his ear: "See also what comes after."

Loomis

Sorry. I thought you were familiar with this stuff - because you were talking about languages and translations and ancient texts and stuff like that.

You can google "Deuteronomy 32" El Yahweh to see where I’m coming from. It should only take a few minutes.

Most people (at least those who are familiar with the subject) think Deuteronomy 32:8-9 says El gave Jacob to Yahweh. Or maybe Yahweh to Jacob.

Haven’t you ever heard this before?

Loomis

And besides that, you asked me "What is/are your favorite ancient text(s)?"

So I told you.

Roger Pearse

Many thanks -- this is most interesting. What is your source for these quotations? Is Tzetzes using Zonaras?

I'm afraid that I don't know much about Zonaras -- what is the 'chess banning' story?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

yummyfur

Good editions of Cassius Dio break down the various sources for the fragmentary books, there is one online from an older Loeb edition at the LacusCurtius site that does this to a certain extent, though it is not complete in showing all sources.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/..._Dio/home.html

Tzetzes and Zonares both lived in 12th century Byzantine Empire, though Zonares was the elder.

Tzetzes was a poet and grammarian, who ironically for this thread, was a bit vain about all the texts and languages he had knowledge of. His Chiliades (so named for its 1000 line division, when its was first printed on a press, not his title or division) is essentially a miscellany of qoutes and references from various sources interstrued with his commentary, his epsitles were letters to persons real and sometimes fictional, which he talked about both mundane things and current events, but always sprinkled with his erudition, by various literary references, very likely this was one of the uses he put his Chiliades to, as well as memorization. Tzetzes says he is referencing Cassius Dio in the texts.

Zonares was a Eastern Church canonist and later a monk, who wrote a World History called Epitome History, appropriately titled, both because he thought historians spent too much time writing about battles and reconstructing long speeches, so he tried to limit the longwindedness of these events, and also because he basically paraphrased or copied other sources, one of the major ones for the Roman era, being Cassius Dio.

As far as Chess goes, many Eastern Church leaders thought that Chess was a debauched pagan ritual, and made religious edicts against it, but this seems to have only made it more popular. Zonares was one of these fellows.

Julian

[MOD]
The derail on the translation of Elyon has been split to here.

Julian
Moderator BC&H
[/MOD]